tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-85013135604592786292024-03-12T16:38:56.250-07:00The Invisible CounterpointPatrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.comBlogger814125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-85590654460865506752019-07-14T13:04:00.000-07:002019-07-14T13:04:09.914-07:00Film review list, to be updated (missing last year of reviews)<br />
<a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/05/review-of-avengers-infinity-war.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Avengers: Infinity War</a><span id="goog_1490719797" style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;"></span><span id="goog_1490719798" style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;"></span><a href="https://www.blogger.com/" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;"></a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/04/youre-not-really-here-review.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">You're Not Really Here</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/03/ready-player-one-review.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Ready Player One</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/03/unsane-reviewed.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Unsane</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/03/isle-of-dogs-reviewed.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Isle of Dogs</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/02/black-panther-reviewed.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Black Panther</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2018/02/redemption-in-paris-1517-to-paris.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">15:17 to Paris</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/12/downsizing.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Downsizing</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/12/review-of-star-wars-last-jedi.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Star Wars: the Last Jedi</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/11/when-rose-mcgowen-appears-in-asgard.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px; text-decoration: none;">Thor: Ragnorok</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><span style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: "helvetica neue", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/10/review-of-snowman.html" style="color: #970101; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Snowman</a></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(62, 63, 60); color: #3e3f3c; font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 20px;" /><br />
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/09/mother-is-about-being-manipulated.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Mother</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/09/its-as-familiar-to-many-as-plain.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">It</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/08/discussion-over-logan-lucky-hell-or.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Logan Lucky / Patterson / Hell or High Water (discussion)</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/08/conversation-over-beguiled-at-new.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Beguiled</a> (discussion)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/08/why-were-in-people-we-abhor-in-detroit.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Detroit</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/08/further-conversation-over-dunkirk.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Dunkirk</a> (further discussion)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/07/discussion-over-dunkirk.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Dunkirk</a> (discussion)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/07/taking-pause-before-loving-caesar-in.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">War for the Planet of the Apes</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/07/the-only-web-strand-that-counts-in.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Spider Man: Homecoming</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/06/rejuvenation-and-spittle-in-mummy.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Mummy</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/06/the-logos-of-wonder-woman.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Wonder Woman</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/05/when-they-return-they-return-of.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Baywatch</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/05/visiting-david-five-years-from-now-in.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Alien Covenant</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/05/hurriedly-gettin-jiggy-wit-it-in-king.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">King Arthur: Legend of the Sword</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/05/slipping-in-piece-of-something-that.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Guardians of the Galaxy 2</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/04/losing-out-on-pleasures-of-hitlers.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Circle</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/04/the-zookeepers-wife-as-transferable.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Zookeeper's Wife</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/03/life-as-political-analogy-coming-to-you.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Life</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/03/the-problem-of-belle-in-beauty-and-beast.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Beauty and the Beast</a> (second of two essays)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/03/the-problem-of-gaston-in-beauty-and.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Beauty and the Beast</a> (one of two essays)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/03/kong-skull-island.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Kong Island</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/03/logan-teaches-us-lesson-of-degas.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Logan</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2017/02/get-out-encourages-step-back.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Get Out</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/establishing-no-true-justification-for.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Nocturnal Animals</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/fantastic-beasts-and-how-to-react-when.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Fantastic beasts and Where to Find Them</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/aliens-arrive-to-be-sat-on-in-arrival.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Arrival</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/whats-awry-in-our-loving-perfect-couple.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Loving</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/02/when-only-way-forward-is-with-devil.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Witch</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/its-for-it-remaining-necessary-war-that.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Hacksaw Ridge</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/dr-strange-wont-let-its-hero-sink-away.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Dr. Strange</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/11/moonlight-spots-light-on-something.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Moonlight</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/infernos-twin-satisfactions-enjoying.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Inferno</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/keeping-up-with-joneses.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Keeping Up with the Joneses</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/the-accountant.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Accountant</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/birth-of-nation.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Birth of a Nation</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/what-to-do-with-pathetic-in-all-of-us.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Girl on the Train</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/the-magnificent-seven_7.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Magnificent Seven</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/10/miss-peregrines-home-for-peculiar.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/05/psychic-triggers-in-captain-america.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Captain America: Civil War</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/02/superimposing-another-fourth-wall.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Deadpool (Superimposing another "fourth wall" Deadpool)</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/02/dead-potential-in-deadpool.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Deadpool (Dead potential)</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/02/hail-caesar.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Hail, Caesar!</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=the+big+short" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Big Short</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2016/01/when-youre-hating-on-general-hux.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Force Awakens</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/12/in-heart-of-sea_26.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">In the Heart of the Sea</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/10/bridge-of-spies.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Bridge of Spies</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/10/steve-jobs.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Steve Jobs</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/10/the-martian.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Martian</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/07/the-overnight.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Overnight</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/06/inside-out.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Inside Out</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/06/jurassic-world.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Jurassic World</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/05/avengers-age-of-ultron-being-bound-up.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Avengers</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/03/the-hobbit-tolkien-cleaned-up-version.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Hobbit</a> (book review --2014)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/04/exmachina-misses-how-were-actually.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Ex-Machina</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/01/from-american-sniper-to-triumph-of-will.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">American Sniper</a> (from American Sniper to Triumph of the Will?)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/01/clint-eastwoods-comfort-zone-in.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">American Sniper</a> (Eastwood's comfort zone)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2015/01/parting-sea-in-ridley-scotts-exodus.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Exodus: Gods and Kings</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=hobbit+battle+of+the+" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/10/fury.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Fury</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/08/guardians-of-galaxy_27.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Guardians of the Galaxy</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=Boyhood" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Boyhood</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=lucy" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Lucy</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=railway+man" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Railway Man</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=transcendence" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Transcendence</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/search?q=bad+words" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Bad Words</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/04/draft-day.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Draft Day</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/03/nymphomaniac_20.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Nymphomaniac</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/03/noah.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Noah</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/03/divergent_24.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Divergent</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/02/non-stop.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Non-Stop</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/02/pompeii.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Pompeii</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/02/3-days-to-kill.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">3 Days to Kill</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.399999618530273px; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/02/it-might-not-have-been-worth-it-lupita.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">12 Years a Slave</a> (it might not have been worth it, Lupita)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/02/too-late-we-saw-your-boobs.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Oscars</a> (too late -- we <i>saw</i> your boobs)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.399999618530273px; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/out-of-frying-pan-and-into-fire-gravity.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Gravity and 12 Years a Slave</a> (out of the frying pan and into the fire)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/jack-ryan-shadow-recruit.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/her-spike-jonze_19.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Her</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.399999618530273px; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/fork-in-road-atwood-and-brody-or-dfw.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Wolf of Wall Street </a>(fork in the road)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/wolf-of-wall-street-part-two.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Wolf of Wall Street</a> (part two)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 15.399999618530273px; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/review-wolf-of-wall-street-part-one.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Wolf of Wall Street</a> (part one)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/11/12-years-slave-review-part-one.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">12 Years a Slave</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/11/enders-game.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Ender's Game</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/2013-movies-accompanied-by-text-from.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">2013 films, accompanied by text by Lloyd de</a><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2014/01/2013-movies-accompanied-by-text-from.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Mause</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/10/gravity_24.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Gravity</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/10/carrie.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Carrie</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/10/don-jon.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Don Jon</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/09/prisoners_23.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Prisoners</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/09/the-family_18.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Family</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/09/insidious-2.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Insidious 2</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/09/the-butler.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">The Butler</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/08/kick-ass-2.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Kickass 2</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/08/elysium.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Elysium</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/07/this-is-end-and-summer-self-surrender.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">This is the End</a> (and summer self-surrender)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2013/07/normal.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">This is the End</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 16pt;"><a href="http://patricksjustincasesite.blogspot.ca/2012/06/brave-is-brave-but-leaves-signficant.html" style="color: #888888; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Brave</a></span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-88484627893773153642019-04-07T16:07:00.000-07:002019-04-07T16:07:13.367-07:00Notes on "Us"<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R0DKuBwRjAo/XKqChjKrioI/AAAAAAAABjw/g9hi7uVAf-MFu_uR2jr0VJD0aFIi1xPmgCLcBGAs/s1600/Unknown.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="182" data-original-width="277" height="420" src="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R0DKuBwRjAo/XKqChjKrioI/AAAAAAAABjw/g9hi7uVAf-MFu_uR2jr0VJD0aFIi1xPmgCLcBGAs/s640/Unknown.jpeg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There is actually very little in "Us" that doesn't amount to a perverse sort of wish-fulfillment... until the very end. Adelaide WIlson suffered a terrible trauma as a young child, but as Barbara Streisand recently took advantage about us to say about Michael Jackson's child victims in order to recover Michael's reputation, since she ended up with a loving husband and a handsome family, and as well, affluent, underneath our assessment of her is base sense that it couldn't really have been that bad. If I could have everything she had, I'd undertake her trauma, pretty much in a blink, is what we say to ourselves. Not only that, without it being explicitly delineated for us her being a person OF trauma seems to lend her aspects which would camouflage well, almost of depth, particularness: when we compare her with her "friend," Kitty Tyler, the wife of the family they pair up with a lot for social occasions, her knowing trauma is linked, as is her being a water-drinker rather than Kitty's alcoholic interest in wine at all occasions, with her sort of being elevated above everyone else. In a way, trauma is playing out here a little bit like one of sexy neurotic disorders everyone aspiring to matter in the nineteenth century had to have, to show they belonged amongst the highest circle, to show they were of class. She has suffered an early injury which made her introspective and removed; her friend "injures" herself -- through plastic surgery -- but only to further showcase her own vapidity and triviality. The right amount of trauma, is actually cool to have.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The "evil" dopplegangers that hunt after them are cool to have to, for each member of the family shows themselves capable of besting their counterpart, ultimately, even if not at first owing to their opponents having trained for revenge... their whole lives. Each does well, and the family itself does well, both wholeheartedly pointed out to us, for being given the chance to compare how a different sort of doppleganger family -- the white family they socialize with, who are matches, more or less, in family size and social status -- matches their own literal counterparts. All the members of the Tyler family, go down in a blink. Quick knife attacks on each one of them, and within seconds of one another's demise, they're all down. Since they're own technology -- a Google home-type technology -- ends up almost mocking them at the end, "mishearing" Kitty Tyler's plea for it to call the police as a command to play "fuck the police," by NWA, it almost seems fitting that their debris of corpses suffer other humiliations that are available to them at their demise: and so the Wilson family commandeers their new Land Rover, to show that when a trial arrives to sift pretenders from genuine contenders, we get shown who really earns the right to the edge in all battles between rivals, even in material acquisitions.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There's a whole underclass of people, it turns out, that have been denied all the advantages people like the Tyler and Wilson family possess, so the movie has an "Occupy" theme. But no matter how much we learn of how much they suffered, we probably only think we end up empathizing with them: there's sort of a developed rule in movie narratives that whenever the bad guys show how wounded they have been in life, unless the wounder was directly culpable, the automatic way out of actually involving ourselves in the damaged people's dismay is to show them doing something so heinous, they've already lost whatever sympathy they sought maybe to inure in us. The James Bond villain, Raoul Silva, from Skyfall, was abandoned by the british special forces, by "M," mom, specifically, but he's already killed numbers of "innocent" office workers in return, and as well brutalized and enslaved a woman who as a girl was forced into prostitution, so he's always outside sympathy ("M" does end up paying for it, though). But usually the way it works is the villain ends up threatening the life of a child, which is what Adelaide's double does. The point is, the raging underclass that cuts loose, almost, not to Watership Down-like release of caged rabbits, but human droids still actually under command: they clear the street of so much human "prattle," human cattle, so the vacationing family sort of now has their beach vacation, but without the crowds. They let the family have Saturday "fun," but on Tuesday... they really do get their own beach. The dopplegangers, all wearing red, hand in hand for a line all across mountain ranges, and seeing it visually feels like seeing the like of an aerial view of Great Wall of China: it fits into a vacation theme.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">We identify with this family right up to the end. We would want to be this family, be in their position. And that to some extent is how Jordan Peele gets us. For in the end, our desiring to be the trauma suffering young woman who ended up emerging into life like that, forces, for the first time, an identification with a doppleganger. For it turns out that the young girl wasn't only traumatized by an early meeting with her doppleganger in a setting where she felt alone and incapable of finding rescue / parental support, but actually destroyed by it: the doppleganger had actually nabbed her, not just spooked her, forced her into living her own fate while replacing her as the family's "daughter." Nested into someone we ourselves are enjoying being akin to, we get caught into imagining ourselves so doomed as well, and it's not pleasant. Since we had no previous ability to sympathetically imagine the doppleganger, we find ourselves stuck with her, and so likely now find ourselves trying to puff smoke into what she did manage to accomplish in life, what we saw of her and didn't maybe value as much as we should because we knew her character was doomed, owing to her tainted origins, never to really be able to find happiness or victory, so it seems to bear some genuine worth. For the first time we feel as we might if we found ourselves our comfortable society of winners and deposited inescapably amongst the abandoned, the lost... people like those caught in service jobs like all the carnival workers we see, and we try and forge links already lining up for us in reality with a cocktail waitress becoming a powerful member of the House of Representatives, to find some rescue for us.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Husbands deflate in terms of family stewardship as film progresses. Wives of both WIlson and Tyler families emerge as of central importance, as relative riff-raff of husbands fall to the side. With the Wilson family, where the father is hardly completely deflated, he makes a stupid show of himself as he stands against an invading family, solo, deeming that a family, shadowed in black, standing on his lawn, immediately after the power in his house has gone out, is something that can be handled by the type of father we know of from movie references, who ostensibly sure head of householdness is shown by the fact that HE WILL recourse to a baseball bat if the "kids" don't get off his lawn after being politely asked to. Conversely, his wife makes splendid show of her own self, when she decides that she's in charge. With the Tyler family, the husband tries to stand by his "right" to sit by and drink, but the wife of course succeeds in beckoning him out to confront their own "lawn intruders." If there is any risk of this sequence itself playing into one that feeds into patriarchal motifs -- and certainly we do know of the old sense of a couple where the father's reluctance and the wife's insistence, nevertheless doesn't play to matriarchy but it's opposite, involving the over-concerned wife -- it gets blanched in the way the scene develops: everyone but the wife is killed and remains dead; she gets moments more, and her doppleganger plays out as the movie's second-most formidable and dangerous -- kid-threatening -- "villain.'</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Argument that the film extends our empathic reach, which one would think an easy one to make, considering ostensibly being drawn in to involve ourselves with the lived lives of the ignored and disparaged, is belied by the fact that the Tyler family is set up so that one almost enjoys their being so readily slaughtered. In any film where empathic reach is actually extended, one would think it would bleed into arenas ostensibly immune to it -- which would include the rich and obnoxiously rude.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The dopplegangers use scissors as their primary weapons, mostly to gouge, but also to snip "things" off. It's a tool of the household, of seamstress... of elementary school play activities. It's the inverse to all the other objects that our attention is put to in the film, which are of the adult world. Things like alcohol, a boat, summer home, a car. It's also retrograde, as the focus of the teenage girl in the film is an iphone. None fo these people make any pretence to being grown-up, is what we intuit. With the exception of their leader, they are all de facto children. It's empowering as it seems to free them of any doubt.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Tyler family is ample in size. They're all conventionally John Hughes, when Hughes is depicting characters in affluent upper middle class families, other than the odd one out. With Hughes its a way to pull off focus on them as as fully human as the odd one out is, and it seems like something along these lines -- means to pull away empathic reach -- is at work here. Thereby the twin girls of the Tyler family, deindividualized simply for being twins, suffer the further indignity of being rendered into exactly the type of girls -- in being large-breasted, big hipped, in a conventional most popular girl in school way -- who'd show up in horror films only to be killed while having sex. By contrast, the Wilson family -- with the notable exception of the father -- is lithe, ballerina thin. They carry aspects of genuine culture in them. Europeanness, vs. the Tyler's course Americanness. Insular, removed, ostensibly snobby. Sense is that the Tyler family represents the over-ripened affluent, so far along on its phylogentic limb that it's lost if circumstances change, while Wilson family is only half-emerged into it, always holding something back.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The Wilson father's huge frame and over-weightness works a bit as a family defence. That is, in case all the other member's thinness or smallness reads as undevelopedness, or as afraidness -- bodies afraid to emerge into full reality, so stay tight to the bulb -- he himself loudly represents to others the frame the film intends to delineate as embodying Americans who readily assume their level of comfort and affluence.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">One of the things you sense when everyone around seems to have died, is a sense of being allowed now to quieten your ambitions, a sense of freedom. The Wilson family is in competition with the Tylers... there a sense that you have to, if not match them, show you're more or less keeping up. The young woman in the family feels the pressure of becoming a top athlete, a great athletic runner. Her doppleganger rival mocks her by showing in her casuality, just how easy it will be to catch up to her in a footrace, for already being at the peak of performance her rival is hoping she might obtain. Her doppleganger self does it, already possesses it, and perhaps with that, and it being a drive that is funnelled into something due for destruction -- the doppleganger will die; the sprinter humiliated by a car's ability to go even faster and then come to an abrupt stop -- she no longer feels the pressure to perform. She can easily let that "ambition" go, if she wants. And otherwise for the family, with so few remaining alive, there's a sense that the whole competitive, late-capitalism manic phase of competitive acquisitiveness, has been given the push it needed to reach its full demise ahead of time.</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-90460835206936983812019-03-15T15:47:00.001-07:002019-03-15T15:47:13.074-07:00"Captain Marvel" forgets there are some sorts of marvels we tend to background and assume<div style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; vertical-align: baseline;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There is a part near the end of "Captain Marvel" where a supreme being of the Kree tries to undermine Captain Marvel's current cause against "her" by reminding her of how badly she needs the current Kree structure--it's what saved her, by teaching her about competency and self-success, from feeling like an essential, an-always victim: so don't rail against what you can't live without, sister! The audience for a moment is reminded that, oh yeah, we were shown memories of her in positions where she was certainly encouraged to doubt her ability to thrive all by herself; and we likely cooperate with the film in agreeing that the narrative is one of someone who'd once been maligned by being made to doubt her ability to succeed by herself, denied being possessed of that kind of due self-love, who emerged into someone who knew without doubt this was a lie--she's got a kick-ass core, in a dual sense. This said, like the saying goes... "the body knows the score": that is, we never really had any sense of her as belonging to this narrative patterning at all, actually, and that the only experience any one watching the film could possibly have of her is as a reverberating field of certain force that moves along the time-span of the film, much like an invicible destroyer robot would range across from one side of a corridor to the other. It might be that the only thing that convenes against her in the film, then, is perhaps the sense that phenomenologically she might be read as more the golden road of assurance and power that clears through a muck of landscape, that others traverse to assist, make use of, in layering up their own selves.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Some people are concerned that "Captain Marvel" effectively neuters Fury, the head of Shield, the powerful spy organization. Everything he can do, she can do better, sort of thing. It is true that when he for a moment defaults his attention away from her onto a cat that's entered his life, it does feel a bit like someone who's just been shown what the real pro league is about, deferring to something more within range -- the drop in prestige, the encouragement for mockery, notwithstanding: in comparison to "you" I'm farting around with child's toys, yes, but nevertheless THIS REMAINS better. But what this take misses is that what Captain Marvel innocently really ends up showing up is just how much tedium for genuine interest on our part she possesses in being the ultimate superhero, the undiluted fireball of ranging explosive power that she is. In one instance, for example, Fury is shown taking measure of exactly what might be available to him to unlock a door he does not have high-enough level ranking to open himself. He cognitively transforms an incident that was about presenting identification, and that was experienced as proving a match for the authority required, so that it is understood, instead, so that it becomes an open delineation of materials from which a fingerprint that might permit the pass he seeks could be secured; that tones down one that aroused feelings of authority, refusal, self-doubt, into one that is chilled into that of a level playing field of the scientist who belongs there, working focussedly within his own lab. He makes elegant work of the lock problem, and she, not he, is diminished when she demonstrates immediately afterwards she has no need of his finesse, for any and all of his skill and abilities at all, actually, for possessing neutron star-level powers that can smack through the like of huge alien ships, not only mere metal doors: he "gets" "art," he "gets" the delight of experiment, the adventure of it, and she doesn't... everything she achieves is with the same redundant total-overmatching of obstacle present, and to her, there is nothing absent with that. And with that, no wonder he is drawn immediately afterwards to the cat: compared to her, it's high pedigree; can value distinguishing enough to be finicky, whereas for her any damn hamburger can make the belly full.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The film is set in the 1990s, but we dip back a bit to the 1950s when it comes to the refugees: perhaps because the Skrulls are made to represent our current sense of refugees, which often come from cultures which "endorse" some patriarchal strictures we'd oblige, niggle within our own natural humane sympathies, from no others, the "alien" phenomena of a traditional family... father as head of household, is encountered "there"--specifically with the head of the Skrulls, Talos (his wife chides and teases him, but by no means "steers the ship": it assists in delineating him as almost a Norman Rockwellish dad... the adoring wife, with no other obvious occupation other than wife and mother). Otherwise, Captain Marvel's background is mostly with her father; Fury is attendant to his mother; and Captain Marvel's best friend is a single mom. They are unvalenced neutrons, we sense. Captain Marvel involves herself with a "mom"-figure, digs into that now-present but once-absent figure with a fury, split into both good and bad entities in the film (there are two notable bad-mother representations in his movie, actually, and if there is a character arc for her that actually registers in us, it may be, in being shown to have birthed the whole Avengers agenda/universe, it's of the spurned daughter showing her mother what she once did and failed at, she can achieve with furious total success). Fury, as mentioned, becomes more and more deeply involved with a cat (cat got his eye, not his tongue... Captain Marvel took care of that organ, rendering him the caught-out -- read: speechless -- earthling astray from the nine-to-five familiarity, from the get-go), something that is a reflection of one's own intractable self-sufficiency. The single mom tries to re-instate her best friend, Captain Marvel, into the role of her true core adult life partner--the one that completes her family picture. It feels thin, a Plato's shadow, to the bond between Talos and his wife, however... which alone has the latitude of immunity to any need to salute as resplendent that which our culture had once deemed off-balance, diverted, perverse, the sad case. Something artificial is being implanted into the role of the real, and we feel it, even as we're doomed to only follow those who aren't the ostensibly sideshow. How often does a superhero film argue that simply to be one of the rescued is to embody in the fullest and most convincing form... something that rings of possessing the true power core of authority?</span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-38596402160105071742019-01-20T05:16:00.002-08:002019-01-20T05:48:45.865-08:00"Glass" is not enough, but something in contribution to making someone else appear to make use of our eyes<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Anthony Lane in review of this film postulated that no one would really be all that agog at realizing that there were people out there that were capable of doing feats that no one of our current biology could manage -- feats of strength that were evidently, as we weighted if maybe the strongest MIGHT actually manage them, 50 to 100% more than any man really could, regardless of how full of adrenaline, or heavily heaped in muscles, for example. He assumed that whatever they saw, they'd subsume it with their awareness of how much now is digitally altered, or regularly explained away as as extraordinary they are, how they're ACTUALLY still within human capacities... perhaps from understanding "outside human capacity" as the stuff movie superheroes do, which is the like of not just making a significant dent in a car, not just lifting one side of one and putting it on edge, but ripping in it two, or lifting the whole damn thing and tossing it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There is a way in which he is both right and wrong. The publication he writes for, the New Yorker, published a piece awhile ago where Harvard scientists were arguing that the strange object that entered our solar system last year could not but be an alien probe -- nothing else could explain it. I think at some level New Yorker readers were aware that, whether or not it was that, may not matter for it really being able to penetrate into our current fascinations, which draw us to some kind of show-down we're anticipating where potentially all our current anxieties might find easement, ourselves validated and future path guaranteed to be vexation-free, our enemies broken for good... if Trump is linked with Russia, the alt-right and the rise of fascism and the fall of a worldview which had sustained and supported us and which had been allowed to exist uncontested in terms of validity, would fall away as did the great towers of Sauron once the quest to link him with what could destroy him had finally been accomplished; conversely, to the other side, if Trump could be validated, then the next long period of time were guaranteed to be one of an alt-right universe as no longer questionable but god-sent, and their warriors as pure and righteous only.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Still, this week the New Yorker brought this subject up again, the presence of the alien ship, and it was the most viewed article on the site. Whether or not we are so bent on seeing the further unfoldings of dramas at play in the world that literally nothing could interfere with our focus on them if it didn't seem in some way to bear on it, be subconsciously construed to factor into it as an essential "player" we were maybe lacking -- and an ostensibly neutral outsider, currently doesn't; its being alien to our psychological requirements trumps its status as a meaning-marker OF ACTUALLY BEING ALIEN -- we are not so obsessed that we couldn't detach ourselves somewhat from them. We ponder: aliens might just have visited us, something we've wondered for the longest of time if it could ever be possible, usually in hope but frequently in doubt, and even if not now at some point there is a future "us" that will emerge that will engage with this fact in a much less distracted way... 'cause, holy sh*t! We'll largely dismiss them for now, but THEY HAVE BEEN tabled. We're not that idiotic.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I think this is probably what we would do if we were given visual evidence that such super-powered beings as the ones in "Glass" existed, but if they didn't seem to have anything to bear on global warming, the rise of fascism, the rise of socialism/new democrats vs. neoliberal democrats, the rise of the alt-right, etc. THIS IS BIG, we'd at some level register... and subconsciously table our consideration of them as an "issue" onto themselves, rather than, say, something we fold into one of current ways of narrating what is meaningful to our existence in the world, like the rise of ostensibly superior beings all over the place, like on one side, young socialists and, on the other, proud men, as they might see themselves.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The film is being derided all over the place. It certainly appears to favour our sense of sticking with our own heightened sense of selves, and seeing any detractors as simply jealous or envious, as malformed in every way but their ability to appear benign and to manipulate. It would seem a great film for those who want to find support for their own narcissism, to see what others claim is their narcissism as actually seeing what is good about them that deserves support and expansion, to be played to, not to be cursed with doubt, contrived into an illness, but that they themselves have found themselves in life denied. But still, it does land onto each one of these characters -- excepting the super-mind Glass, it is made to seem -- some ability to consider themselves as having somewhere in their subconsciousness imagined themselves grandiose super-powered, as some kind of remedy to brutal situations that occurred to them in the early years of their life that functioned to make them feel powerfully small, vulnerable, and likely always readily prey to subsequent victimization; that they are fundamentally denied human beings, those denied of proper care and attention, rather than those possessed of superior skills or well-being -- what the psychiatrist, in her -- as Stephanie Zacharek delineates in her review for us -- "watercolor-hued cashmere outfits," and patient-respecting intentions and manner, would in real life represent.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There was, in a sense, a lot I could work with in this film. It would be exactly something, for example, one would expose to a narcissist in therapy, for narcissists reject all overt criticism so you have make an extra-large effort to acknowledge them when treating them, don't challenge their narcissism but play to it, and slowly introduce them to the possibility that their "greatness" is not about their selves, but about an alternative explanation for themselves that functions to elide a sense of themselves as fundamentally abandoned and weak and which actually intrudes on their ability to forge something unique and wonderful about them that is independent of functioning as a salve to trauma. The heroes all get to know they are actually super-empowered at the end, recovered into a status where they formerly felt secure, but narcissists experiencing themselves through them they might recall those moments where their likenesses, where the main protagonists, did sit with those recalls of moments in their lives where they were terrorized and tormented, where they were made to feel terribly weak, and where, counter-mingled with their distance from the incidents and their being more grown-up, they forged the logical connection that, yes, though they themselves might actually be super-powered, to believe themselves that is exactly what someone who shared their early formative experiences would have formulated for themselves... and so how can they be sure they really are the different that escapes the rule? Or that their own experience of grandiosity was reflective both of what is factually true about them, an honest reflection of the great powers they do possess, AND something that serves to help them feel less helpless as they once were to terrible victimization, making it a convenient fact that makes less necessary their being forged out of thin air.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The hard part, a bit, is that you have to elide all of "the beast's" inclination to eat and kill young women -- and only after making them sex-objects for "other's" purview, and otherwise psychologically torturing them -- in order to understand him as simply one of those whose true greatness can't be recognized because a world is intent on keeping it unrecognized out of having fashioned for themselves some means to contrive originality as a sin to the world; as not something innocent but an aggressive deliberate measure to make others feel small and undervalued.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The psychiatrist claims that this is her complaint with the super-powered, that they aren't fair... that by simply existing, they humiliate all the "norms" into being, no matter their best efforts, second-best at best. She is contrived in the end as someone herself suffering from a sense that she has been humiliated by other's show of strength. If the film had a larger, more self-aware consciousness, it would have had her... at least in her imagination, demonstrating through her abilities as a psychiatrist that the truth was that she was never smaller than the super-powered, but actually always their better: that she, in readily bettering them -- for a good while at least -- was evidence of humanity gendering more evolved forms. They were the test of self-doubt that needed to be created, for her to show her own superpowers; come into her own.</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-62849427571927672452019-01-19T05:56:00.002-08:002019-01-19T05:56:57.928-08:00Discussion of Short Sun, at the Facebook Gene Wolfe Appreciation site<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/">January 15 at 5:56 PM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Some thoughts on the themes in Book of the Short Sun</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">[Spoilers]</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I've just finished a re-read of Book of the Long Sun and Book of the Short Sun. Short Sun infected my mind more than Long Sun, I guess. I don't have as many questions about LS as I do about SS.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Wolfe is very obsessed with doubled identity throughout Short Sun. It's woven into so many aspects of the book that unless there is a transubstantial meaning I'm missing, I'm going to have to take it as a big clue that the narrator's identity is doubled. You could be forgiven for not realizing that the narrator has two mind/spirits inhabiting his body throughout half of the series. While Wolfe obscures this a little bit, he's telling you nearly everywhere that things are doubled.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• A Binary System of two planets</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Two quills in the pen case</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Neighbors are like doubled humans, 4 arms and 4 legs.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Animals of Blue are doubled. 8 legs, 2 trunks, 4 eyes, 4 wings...</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Neighbors can be in two places at once. Soon enough the Narrator can be as well.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Olivine says everything twice.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Characters with two names, like Evensong / Chota of two nations</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Jahlee and Krait with assumed identities of Son and Daughter</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• The Mother and Urth-Scylla</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Passilk</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Two types of parasites, Inhumi and Liana Vines</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">• Free will and Pre-Programmed identity of Silk as an engineered embryo.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">That last one leads to a central theme of Short Sun, that of Parasitism. The Inhumi are a plague of parasites of humans and neighbors. Liana vines are a parasites of the all the trees of Blue and Green. I'd argue that the "Gods" of mainframe are parasites. They possess and control cargo to their own ends and are essentially nothing without the cargo. Their whole existence depends upon the humans. These Gods aren't good or eternal, they're parasites. The Long Sun Whorl was going along smoothly under this arrangement with the "God-Parasites" but then actually becomes infected with "real" parasite Inhumi before reaching the destination. Typhon is a sort of parasite to Piaton (Piaton is only mentioned in BOTNS but present here).</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Is Horn then a parasite inhabiting Silk? Perhaps that's a stretch and I'm not sure I want to characterize it that way, but I guess so. Either way, Silk harbors another parasite when he eventually makes it to New Viron, that of Passilk. Silk as a Mainframe God, aka Silent Silk or Silver Silk, is merged with Pas and known to us also as Passilk. This is made clear in both Long Sun and the beginning of SS.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Pig is possessed by Passilk. When Silkhorn gives him his eye, he talks with Silk-in-Pig in front of the surgeon's glass and thus Passilk is transferred via the glass into Silkhorn. This should be very clear although the Urthlist is full of questions about how a bio-to-bio transfer could happen. On page 372, "When the nurse's glass had faded to silver-grey..." is the clue. The glass was clearly activated in the narrative gap.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Silkhorn spends much of the books pondering whether the gods of Mainframe have a place on Blue. He ponders if they are there already. He speculates that if they aren't there, maybe they shouldn't be. So when Silk releases Horn at the end, speaking with Ramora, he is still carrying Pas. At the end, no longer driven by Horn's need to get home, or his own need to deny that he is actually Silk, he realizes he's carrying Pas. Ramora is even working on a new God Window. This is not morally or ethically acceptable to Silk so he has to leave, taking the Pas parasite god with him. Blue has enough parasites as it is. Horn's son Sinew calls the whole thing early on in On Blue's Waters (which I don't have on hand to quote) when he says that the plan is really to bring Pas to Blue. Horn dismisses this as he dismisses Sinew constantly. But Sinew is right about the outcome, even if it wasn't "the plan".</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Other themes abound. Fatherhood is a big one, though I'm not sure I have anything to say about it other than Horn doubts he's been a good father and spends much of the time trying to be a better father, even adopting "evil" children.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Rejection of bad governance is another theme that runs throughout the Long and Short Suns. Silk is essentially a genetic archetype of the revolutionary leader people idolize and want to be lead by. Revolutions and war spring up wherever he goes. Viron, Gaon, Blanko, Dorp, and New Viron all go haywire when he shows up. Leaders are changed, despots deposed, would-be-conquerors sent scurrying. Silk is probably so sick of this by New Viron that he just has to leave. A double motivation for him to leave.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I'm not sure what to make of Seawrack and Scylla/Mother on a symbolic level. I'd like to understand their importance more. There is definitely something there but it eludes me at this point.</span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Much of this doubling is meant to be collapsed. The inhumi are the liana. For most of it the rajan is just silk but a silk who does not understand who he is. See how right before seawrack shows up Horn is thinking of the gods of blue and rips a piece of seawrack from the leafy floor to examine ... so the mother rips a piece of seawrack from herself yum yum.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I’m not on-board with the Liana=Inhumi idea or the Urth=Green ideas at all. I’m midway through your write ups by the way. Thanks for sharing those. I also disagree that the Rajan is just Silk. I’m torn on Horn in Babbie. I see the weird reason for wondering it, but Horn is definitely present all through until the end or Silk wouldn’t look more like Horn in the Warping scenes. Those prove that Horn is still in him.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070713018997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Belief is the last to die. He still thinks of himself like horn.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070723578997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> (I’m right though)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA3MjM3OTM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">1</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070723793997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> That tower horn dies in with the broken plates is the matachin tower</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070731153997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> I disagree. It’s all been argued on Urthlist. I don’t buy it. I see why you think so though.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070753933997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I guess paradoxes can’t be explained since they explain everything. I hope you finish the writeups though I put a lot of work into them. See the story of Silk in return to the whorl of the boy sent out from his home who stopped at a nearby place where his mother fell asleep. Got lost etc. Urth list never confronted many many aspects of the reading.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070765908997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> yeah I plan to finish them. I want to explore your genetic cross breeding ideas more.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070775058997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/eric.bourland"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Eric Bourland</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> This is a fascinating discussion.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">3</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070856098997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Seawrack is loyal only to Father at the end, which, to me, strongly suggests that Horn is still very much part of the Horn/Silk conglomerate. Horn as Babbie didn't feel right when I read the text, either. Babbie as just more human, the enriching of his own self, felt persuasive.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">1</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070864193997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> yeah. There is no real mechanism to suggest the transfer into Babbie. I guess it could be a Neighbor. Something weird is going on in that scene, I just don’t accept that Horn is no longer in Silk at that point. He’s Silkhorn until the end as far as I can tell from the text. Why would he look like Horn when warping? Why would Silk bother to go to New Viron to announce Horn’s “failure” if Horn isn’t in him. Silk is stronger having been tempered by Horn.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070880268997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> No mechanism? Horn thinks he is being called Babbie as he sits under the tree, which is a vanished god. p 377 someone on shore called again for Babbie, and I understood that he meant me; it never so much as occurred to me then that I had sometimes been called silk or horn</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070895748997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> the trees are the vanished gods they do everything in this</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070896603997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> You argue that Horn died in the pit. Is this, do you think, actually important.... whether he did or didn't. Don't we when reading the bit, size it up and eventually say that it might have been skipped, left out, at no real loss? Still feels that way to me.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070916208997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick</span></a> I suppose I accept that he died in the pit more than argue for it. It’s oblique. If Silk was dead then the Neighbors can resurrect the recently dead. The Neighbors seem to be the only mechanism unless you’re willing to but into <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc</span></a>’s Liana theory.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070925008997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> Let me just spell it out so that it's clear and people don't have to read those long ass writeups: there are two species that have descended from humanity. The trees hybridize with people in a eucharist by eating them, thus the central eucharist imagery and even the story of hyacinthus whose blood creates a flower. The islands are made up of giant "herbs" as Horn learns in the storm, so the pit on the island is actually the mouth of a huge vegetable mass that hybridizes their with Horn's blood, but he is resurrected after he is, as sea wrack calls him, food. Then the neighbor horn appears. The inhumi parasitize those trees as liana and are either a lower branch of them like the morlock to the elloi, and they return to that lower state in the absence of fresh blood, but still believe that they have the souls of humanity. Both are kind of parasitic but one is a hybridizer and the other simply preys on a host to become like them. See the Tale of the Boy Called Frog in New Sun for the birth of Spring wind when the tree impregnates his mother - the start of the hybridization on Mars/Blue.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070936543997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Mike Bennewitz I think what I'm probably getting at is not about figuring out the Short Sun universe, but just getting at where importance of feeling lies in the text. A lot concerning the neighbours feels extraneous. Vital to the universe, but to the narrative I think they almost function as a super-power some characters can sometimes make use off, powers of transportation, but also powers of instant empowered "friend"... like the giants that arrive at the end of Sorcerer's House. They're a ring of wishes you can use only thrice, or something.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070946423997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Does any change happen to Horn thereafter? Or does the dynamic between and the other characters just more or less continue on in the same fashion, if all he ever was was dead-seeming rather than really truly dead.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070951878997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> Your write-up of the Short Sun deserves to be read regardless of what they reveal, for they register you as someone who has registered so much that is alive in the text.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070956338997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> I think Horn grows immensely over the course of the books especially in his love for Krait, which stands for a whole lot of things, but he cannot reach the more noble aspects he admires in Silk, though I know you read Silk's character a little differently than I do.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156070959883997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> I do appreciate that was how it came across to you. Myself, I'm not certain. I will say, though, again, that his refusal to interfere with Sinew... to allow him his adulthood, WAS impressive. Otherwise, though, it is possible to define the entirety of his "search" as him less coming closer to Silk than his coming closer to Blood. I'll write about it at some point, but boy is his adventure one great payback at Nettle/Echidna (I hybrid them here, to illuminate that the only other reference we have of children as competitors for the mother's breast/oral supplies/attention in the text, is in how "loving" Echidna is portrayed on Blue... children scrambling, vying with one another, to get her attention) for a mother's attention in the text for giving so much of the attention he himself had required to Sinew instead. (This very thing, was one of the grievance's he had with his own mother... you took what I valued, and made use of it to entertain my sister, and thereby shamed and mocked me.) It's hard, as well, to see someone becoming better at interacting with children, when one mates with women always so young, so beautiful... and always so frightened and timorous: the anti-thesis of the mature relationship, the non-adult to child relationship you'd nurtured with your wife. You're spurning those you have to contend with, for those that are less intimidating and where the power is all yours; they can serve as "places" where you can freely administer rage and hate you dared not land at their "source," something Horn could never do with Nettle, evidenced by his being proud of the fact that he actually looked at her in the eyes when she began to countenance what he'd brought along with him as "pressie" in his return. This does not describe Krait or Jahllee... which are big exceptions. But then Jahlee... doesn't she ultimately serve as some kind of anthrax he's long been keeping safe with him, so ultimately he has her to ultimately land on Nettle. Not just the attack on her physically, but as means to ensure she learns about all the women you've been sleeping with, while she's been at home, middle-aged, homely, never really likely to be the candidate for another's affections that you seem in your text so certain she might be. And then you can pretend, after she's delivered her wounds, to only have ever been her aid, the man who loves her, by kicking and killing her, as Silk ended up being when Blood's delivers pretty much Silk's own grievances upon Rose but gets to be only her loyal knight in defence by killing Blood.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071024213997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Patrick McEvoy-Halston </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The reason it matters that Horn died in the pit is that it tells us who the narrator is throughout the story. It’s not Horn nor Silk — although their memories are there. The narrator is a Neighbor. His guilt over inadvertently “killing” Horn tells us about the passivity the Neighbors learned in order to make the inhumi inert. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>It makes the story hang together. It makes the ending make better sense. It clarifies what he was getting at when he remembers Horns story about his mother and the puppet (Horns body has become a puppet of the Neighbor). And that seems to be saying something about the relationship between the Neighbors and Mother. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Finally, Wolfe is creating a rationale for the Trinity — Father, Son, Holy Spirirt.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071736773997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> very fucking interesting.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071767488997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> But if it’s all Neighbor-Horn, then why is he wondering about the nature of the neighbors and their gods and such all the way through?</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071769208997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> That is a very good and very problematic question. I believe it has to do with Wolfe’s pondering of the nature of memory: Are we still “us” without our memories? This would be a very personal question for Wolfe bc of what his wife was just starting to go through when he began to write.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">The Neighbor does not remember who he is and the narrative of the SS is the process of remembering that as he is burdened with the memories, motivations, and especially the regrets of Horn and Silk. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">That was the price he paid to reanimate Horn. He doesn’t fully remember who he is until the end of RTTW when he says it would be too painful to see Hoof and Hide.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">SS is the story of him remembering his true self.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Even when he has glimpses of knowledge, he avoids speaking authoritatively about it bc that would mean admitting he was not Horn but Horn’s killer.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071838573997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Anyway, its more interesting for the Narrator to “discover” who the Neighbors are and his true origin gives him more ways to do that than Horn ever would.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071841448997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> He’s not not the only one who has forgotten his true self — which will bring us back to Fava one day.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071843833997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #151719;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>BTW This might be interesting to you whether you believe my critique or not:</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Forgetting your true self is a question that Plato took up in Timaeus and -- very important in the Solarian franchise -- it relates to the Gnostic story of Simon Magus and Helena:</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Simon was incarnation of "the Father" the supreme being that made the angels that created/were the eons. This Conception of creation, Thought, fell through the eons, each corrupted angel seeking to claim her for his own. Until, one day Simon found her, as Helena, degraded in a brothel. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I believe that this is an allusion woven into the story of LS-SS.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccel.org%2Fprint%2Fwace%2Fbiodict%2FHelena%2C%2520companion%2520of%2520Simon%2520Magus%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR13g9MqIN7B7clI8roB6MbIFd5Uqndiwt8gJRS0cfql63zI5xaKnypXrrI&h=AT3-f6Cr_fwc10QrErpx51dsCYnpUc3gFZgDuc7QZenb-AyF3JIe6CQlgqvfxO-og-CldIFkEkkN77AvY5pIu3EY6titlEAAgBV0o3OTh2JfqT9wht5XuMfz_WjXbZtsfYKgvk8"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135);">http://www.ccel.org/.../Helena,%20companion%20of%20Simon...</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;">Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an…<br />
<a href="http://www.ccel.org/print/wace/biodict/Helena,%20companion%20of%20Simon%20Magus?fbclid=IwAR1tqg9Qok8JPjBPw_KQMpStHPRuk6epVHxAIAEl1gr-xNYMY0GRaIKIu60"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies. - Henry Wace<br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156071947898997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> the embedded story of Inclito's mother about the suitors directly maps onto these various species - to the beloved, they resemble each other, but to each other, they are enemies to be killed from beyond the grave with a serpent's tooth (the inhumi). The deal Horn makes with the other Horn (my theory explains why Horn is separate from Horn) that they can come back is scary - the lumberjacks going out into the forest know that the Vanished People are hostile because he threatens the trees. That's a sinister deal when you see that the trees on green are cannibal trees who eat trees. Horn eaten in the pit is a literal sexual act, given the connotation of the word Horn, (Hornbus, you whore!) and the vaginal maw of implied by the islands being giant herb-islands.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072022143997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> Well, one thing we can definitely agree on: Inclito's mother's tale demonstrates emphatically that the Raja, the Narrator, travels through time with Oreb.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072030203997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> We don't even need it, given the scene where Silk just randomly slips back in time - i found it in my writeup so i'll copy and paste it</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072039008997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> >Those were magic words, although I had been ignorant of their power when I pronounced them. As a small boy I had heard the stories all children hear, and used to imagine that if only I could stumble upon the correct syllables a garden would spring up where our neighbors’ houses stood, a place of mystery and beauty in which the trees bore emeralds that turned to diamonds as they ripened, and fountains ran with milk or wine. Eventually I came to realize that the immortal gods were the only spirits who granted the wishes of men, and that prayers were the magic words I had sought. …</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">>Now - very far from those friends, men and women I will never see again – I had stumbled upon words that were magic indeed. No sooner had I pronounced them than I found myself back in Green’s jungles, squatting beside the young man who had joined us and fought beside us, as he writhed and bled beneath the arching roots. (*Green*, X 157) </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">With all that poetic talk of trees and gardens, it should not be difficult by now to posit a mechanism for this transport through time. There is, however, one aspect of this scene which strongly hints that it is not merely a memory: Krait asks Silk why he hates the inhumi. His denial hammers home that it is specifically Silk from a future point in the timeline visiting this scene: “I’ve never told you anything of the kind … or talked to you at all until this moment.” It was Horn who had lived through this and traveled with Krait, and no matter how much Silk denies it, he is a different man. (Another point comes up during this exchange, which we should always remember when considering the understanding of the cargo placed upon the *Whorl*: “[The sleepers] memories had been tampered with, like Mamelta’s, so they were confused in strange ways” (*Green*, X 158). Even eye-witnesses such as Rigoglio and Mamelta lack sufficient perspective to understand where (and even why) they are. As Rigoglio says when asked if he knew Mamelta, “I may have known your friend under that name or some other … but I have no way of telling. It was a long time, years in fact, before I understood that I did not remember everything, and that not everything I remembered had actually taken place. … Our memories are less trustworthy even that yours. At first we try to live in accordance with them, but sooner or later we learn very painfully that they lead us astray” (*Green*, XVIII 276).) This scene also metaphorically describes the loss of Horn’s happiness: it is breached when Krait the inhumi is born, and only at his death, as a human man reconciled with a father who comes to love him as a son, does that chasm disappear. With the reconciliation of Horn and Krait, there is no more reason for Horn’s bitterness regarding his family life. We might draw a parallel situation with humanity, that will be forever at war and unhappy until it recognizes the nature of the inhumi as distinctly human, ending their threat.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">We shall reinforce the idea that Silk’s travel through dream is also one through time later, and that it was his thoughts that led him to a past Urth, knowing that he intended to reach Green, but Hoof gets much the same impression during his final journey to the Red Sun Whorl: “Father stopped talking, and it seemed to me that he had stopped a long time ago someplace a long way from where I was”</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072039403997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> When the Raja dream travels to Green and ends up on Urth, this is to my thinking, the very strongest evidence that Green is the planet of Urth. The argument that "there are no inhumi on Urth" is weak since the Urth of Severian itself contains many invasive species. Green would be a post-Ushas iteration. Which is why I'm not convinced Horn's tower is the Matachin Tower however perfectly that would work. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">When the Narrator negotiates with Scylla and she says she wIll convey their agreement to her "sister". It would work very well if Urth's Scylla is actually Blue's Mother and that is why she sends help to Horn just before he dies in the form of Seawrack. But what is Scylla doing on Blue and not Green? </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">It bugs me, though, that Green has two Mars-like moons. That's a misdirection too far I think.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">On the Mars connection, I was able to convince Michael Andre-Druissi that SS is lain over ER Burroughs's Mars story while at Windy Con. It was not the multi-limbs of of the inhumi or other fauna that did it. I said, "In A Princess of Mars a man goes to sleep and dreams his way to another world."</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072119718997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> I don't remember those moons</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072159573997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> the three bodies involved that Silkhorn (not sure when it occurs) thinks about are the whorl, Green and Blue. conjunction shows an unstable orbit now ...</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072162388997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> clouds and double darkness veil the sky. The city will look to the sky for a sign but the only sign it will get is from the fish's belly. Wolfe is all about that misdirection</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072164498997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> paraphrased of course</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072164838997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I'd have to look search for it, but the first? time the Raja takes a troop to Green (and actually gets there). The two moons are small satellites like those on Mars.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072171478997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_4.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/a214aef1-f418-41a8-b51b-db71507282cb" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> The passage suggests a great deal of ambiguity about Mother's relationship to anyone, as if who She is is someone who knows how to deliberately play to your susceptibilities to get you forever bidden to Her. Hiding within her body is something Seawrack used to do, but it is also something we know Horn's mother wanted for Horn himself -- to never leave her and remain a child. Two prompts here to think of his own feeling played by his mother, which is what follows in the text, who would take what you'd foraged for yourself as your own skill (representing your own autonomous action), your puppet-making, co-opt it to herself, and suggest through her expertise and mastery that you disown yourself of the skill entirely for being so inadequate in employing it. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">And the bit about Mother being a manteoin, a palace, into which people find themselves lured to for protection, may also explain why Horn ends up hiding himself within a body of someone who represents a more godlike and empowered male personage than he -- in Silk. Taking up Mother's bait made that goal that much more important to achieve, for he could never permit himself to be lured back into what he had once escaped, and owed his whole adult life TO having escaped. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">The ambiguity of the massive body of the Mother! likely also explains the undertanding of obesity as carrying power. It's the Mother's body, it's many of our mothers' bodies, as we knew them when we were dependent and wholly susceptible to her. It also explains... along with other things in the text, why Seawrack would never ever have killed Horn for raping her during that evening, for having had a male now to take her away from Mother! was such a miracle she was willing to endure anything if need be. This was a prize she would never forgo, for he was protection from clinging back... from no longer representing simply a part of someone else, like Merryn essentially is the Mother in New Sun. Horn probably sensed this when he raped her. He should be kind, but he could do what he wanted. And he made use of this advantage to revenge upon her all the anger and shame he felt in Nettle choosing Sinew over himself (... or so it seemed to him) to give her love to.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156072953548997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Patrick you have such a different take on all this. I took the shameful rape to be sonething beyond his control and a result of the Siren-Song that he coerced her to sing. It seems very much like she knew the song would make him mad with lust and lose control. It’s not what he wanted to do. She didn’t want to sing because she knew.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156073004498997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Yeah, my understanding was that Seawrack was a literal siren -- biologically designed by Mother to be irresistible when she chose to be. Apropo of nothing, I always imagined that the name she actually gave Horn was "syrinx".</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156073087808997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> As far as the puppet goes, shortly after his story about the marionette, Horn is set upon by a leatherskin, a massive sea creature with triple-jaws. The only creatures I know of with jaws like that is a manticore and the Dog-Fish from Pinnochio. After Gippetto is swallowed by the Dog-Fish, the Fairy with blue hair becomes his mother and sends him to school.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Other significant mother's:</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Silk's who wanted him to enter the Juzgado</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Hyacinth's mother who gave her two gowns and a green umbrella.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Blood's mother who was Maytera Rose </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Auk's adopted mother who was Maytera Mint</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Olivine's mother and Mucor's adopted mother who was Marble/Magnesia</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156073145083997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I guess that Mother being a house means that Mother is a kind of craft, perhaps a living one, perhaps one staffed by many beings.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156073157838997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_4.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/a214aef1-f418-41a8-b51b-db71507282cb" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> It could that he was compelled to, owing to the voice. For sure. But here's the thing. When Horn describes how his powerfully adverse relationship with Sinew (and thereafter unsettled one with his wife, whose favourite years with her were in the whorl, not on Blue) owes to his wife putting attention to him as a toddler/baby that he himself wanted claim to, what he is describing is akin to what a lot of husbands have made complaint about, especially in the past. They, however, don't end up displacing the blame onto some outside source, like this narrative allows Horn, in figuring in a witch/vampire that is ostensibly solely responsible for creating this powerful lasting rift in the family unit. And it's usually the wives who credit the real culprit as their husband's mothers, who they gossip as not giving their boys the love they required so that as men they sought out to be mothered by their wives... like Severian does many of the women he meets, and became irrationally jealous of their focussing their attention on their newborns. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">So more or less when he hear of how Horn was jealous of Sinew, it is for us to ask if he seems the kind of man who... even without Jahllee appearing to prey on Sinew, would have formed the same rift with him and for the same reason. And it is for us to ask ourselves if he would feel anger not only with Sinew but his wife as well, however well he'd be able to baldly admit with his wife. My sense is that he is exactly this sort of person; that he'd be glad of the unreal circumstances (...well, maybe not so unreal in Blue, where vampires, if not stregas, are real) that permitted him to displace the blame onto a witch/vampire; that he'd unconsciously also hope that circumstances would develop which would permit a terrible sort of revenge on his wife for "spurning" him for her more "clearly" "attractive/appealing" child. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">The narrative offers him this with Seawrack. He's going to have repeated sex with her, and even as he says that he's going to be completely honest in his account... at least offer his wife that, that she would, even if hurt by his account, know she's seen him at his worst -- be granted that power over him -- he still contrives to make his relationship with her one that couldn't be helped: all men, he argues, when given a beautiful young naked child/woman to have sex with, would find themselves greatly sexually excited by her: it's not Horn, but every man who is at fault. And when given an opportunity to situate her as someone who could serve as Nettle for spurning him for another more beauticious soul, he can apply it on someone who is built to accept it as just a wife's due -- the Mother told her she would be abused by her man, but to take it is what wives must do -- and a better alternative even then to returning to her past life. They've met Krait and Seawrack has just admitted that... "he IS handsome," playing to a capacity to be caught out in jealousy she might assume her "husband" to be comfortable with, but it turns out, simply isn't there. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">He then begs her to sing, and following it, rapes her... making her bleed from pretty much everywhere: an outrageous explosion of rage, that'd equal only that inflicted by massive amounts of prior shame and anger that had been waiting for such a perfect target to out itself. The narrative allows us ascribe it solely to the singing, for... such and such. But if this bit about her singing had not occurred... if it never had any such property or if she never had sung, it is for us to ask if we could see Horn raping her in that situation anyway, and for me it is. Mother has allowed him means to sort of "excuse" it as just something men do, and also primed anticipation of it, expectation of it... it's there, waiting for you, dear Seawrack. She's "baiting" him with jealousy, and the simple fact of being a wife who, unlike his Nettle, a mature woman his age, is much less threatening, and hardly open to any kind of rebuttal that would interfere in his activity; operate only as victimizer rather than victimized. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">He seems exactly the kind of guy akin to Bill Clinton, who'd have a history of a history of deflecting off of his "scary" wife to "make address" with a whole sequence of younger woman, which would include raping them, and certainly humiliating and shaming them. Hillary argued once, in an interview with Tina Brown, that Bill was looking for attention from her that his own mother failed to offer him; that he had a denying mother, and like all sons of such could only consciously ascribe her as a holy saint while in practice making other women pay for the "crimes" he knew he'd incurred from her.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">"Were neither of them ever quite able to forget that he had raped her once?</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I have tried hard to punish myself for that, and certain other things. No more. Let the Outsider punish me; we deceive ourselves when we think that we can measure out justice to ourselves. I wanted to end my guilt. What was just about that? I should feel guilty. I deserve it.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I should feel a lot more guilty about having had other women while I was (as I still am) wed to poor Nettle. When I read that business about my thoughts flying around her bed [this is the passage he is referring to: “My night thoughts circle your bed, glowing but invisible, to observe and to protect you. Never doubt that I love you very dearly.”] I was sickened.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Sickened!</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>For all our lives I have been a false lover and a false friend. I would beg her to forgive me if I could. If only I could. I do not dream about her anymore.”</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Displacement onto Jahlee, and onto Seawrack's song, yet both occurrences -- rift in the family unit, rape of a young woman -- readily plausible whether they had manifested or not... already from this Horn who would have us believe he is being completely laid bare in his narrative, despite the fact that he weds Seawrack because... no man could resist, and has scores of young wives as Horn/Silk because he would doom them if he refused. The point -- would you have anyway? Never addressed. But in this passage he evidences some awareness that he's crafting something, this book, not only to come clean, but to near deliberately "inadvertently" terrorize her, for accepting the lure, the bait, of opening herself to him through this obligatory reading of his final days.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070705088997&reply_comment_id=10156074749128997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> I don’t know. I’m not particularly interested in this angle... sure, it does often seem like his admissions are cruel to Nettle, that’s for sure. It fits into Horn constantly saying he’s not good and constantly trying to be better.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/eric.bourland"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2;"><b>Eric Bourland</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2;"> Interesting!</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070854633997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think at one point Silk argues that without the gods, as negligent... as truly awful as they are, morality would die. I think Horn argues that Nettle did good by encouraging his sons to believe... that that would save them. Quetzal even says something about the gods as well, that suggests damage is done by thinking them parasitic. He says something like, even as we know them as they are, they remain our "parents"; we have to believe in them. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">If Horn is trying to be a better father, I'm not sure he ultimately succeeds. With Hide and Hoof, he ultimately has sons who seem too easy advocates of his point of view, and from my point of view, Sinew is the only one of his children who finishes up able to live independent of him, and whom Horn/Silk, who is so ready at most times to intercede in people's lives, luring, jostling them all over the place, mastering them, won't cross; leaves at peace. He seems typical first born to a family of love-needing parents, has better attachment skills, is more comfortable being autonomous, because the parents know they don't have to cling to him for there will be others to come... the empty nest is not yet in sight. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">The motive for why Silk leaves is certainly worth a deep conversation, but I remember when I first read Short Sun I didn't blink at it. I'll explore this at some point. I suspect his departure does not owe to SIlk's possession of Pas (when was it confirmed that Pas is in Silk, btw). We should get into that at some point. I like how you notice how things go haywire when he shows up. The one place it doesn't happen -- Sinew's village.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070859783997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I have many firm opinions about the plot of SS that are debatable. But that Horn died in that pit and that Silk killed himself in front of Hyacinth’s casket seem so obvious to me. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I don’t think the ending of SS is compressible without recognizing that the plot of LS is not as straightforward as people think.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_4.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/a214aef1-f418-41a8-b51b-db71507282cb" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> What do you make of the fact that Silk died with so many cuts to his body? I think Borski pointed out that the place itself has been trashed. He argues Pig killed him, and his best argument that that is a possibility is that some other... I forget who, wonders if a godling had inflicted the wounds. But what works against considering that possibility is that it's difficult to imagine Pig, considering his size and strength, not cleaving Silk into two if he succeeded in cutting him several times... and as well, there's the matter of Silk being an expert at arms (we remember how many giants a trained fighter can take down just by applying the right cuts to the right places, in the Knight.) This is one I'm still thinking on.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070881613997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The argument that Pig killed him Silk and lied about everything is interesting. It sure seems like Silk killed himself there or at least he was working himself up to doing it. I accept that Horn dies in the pit. I accept that Silk was probably dead when Horn transferred into him though I’m not sure it needs to be read that way. Probably though.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070884833997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Silk has suicidal tendencies. But there is a way in which getting the eye back into Pig is a way for the personality of Silver silk to be freed from Pig and put back in Silk if it is missing.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070891628997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> But there are some memories in Return to the Whorl that the body of Silk seems to remember from two point of views, so it doesn't seem that he is totally gone.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070892033997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think Silk slashed his wrists in front of Hyacinths casket. His soul has left but their is just enough life left in his body that the Neighbors can replace him with “Horn”. All that is left of Silk at that point are his physical memories.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">There’s a bit where the Narrator talks about how we don’t die when the soul leaves the body —the soul leaves because the body is destroyed.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070894493997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> I have thought that maybe the significance of the eye is that it lets Silver Silk be a "reboot" for Silk</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070898338997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> The relationship of SIlk TO ANY possible suicide deserves consideration as well. There's a bit in Short Sun where he thinks on killing one of his young wives... so that she would serve as a displaced killing of his own self... and of course that he lured Horn out into a position where he was primed to serve as the same sort of replacement self-sacrifice... and Oreb always (it turns out, rightly) worrying about being done in by him. If he ever gets in the mood, someone else seems so always to be the one to pay the price. Something about this is why it sometimes seems impossible that he'd ultimately let himself go for anyone, even if that is what in fact happened.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070905028997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> It’s hard to say when he has Silk’s memories and doesn’t because all of this is written after the fact. I would want Silver Silk to have a narrative significance.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070915198997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> the narrative significance of Silver Silk is that Silkhorn brings Passilk to Blue. Horn doesn’t want that and presumably Silk has come to his way of thinking about the Gods of the Whorl.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070918598997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> (Silk was to be Typhon's vessel from the start - "In some higher reality I am a cognate of Sand" What was sand? A sacrifice to bring back Pas.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070921298997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #151719;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> yes</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85098); background-color: #b3b3b3; color: #7e818a;">Show more reactions</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85098); background-color: #b3b3b3; color: black;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070927628997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> yes but after spending time merged with Horn he has decided Fuck That!</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070928963997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Merged with “Horn” </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85098); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2; font-family: "Apple Color Emoji"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">😉</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA5MzE1NTM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">1</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070931553997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> My reading of that is that the separate neighbor also known as Horn (his name is my name, too!!!!) who shakes hands with Horn was born from falling in the pit, but that Horn got resurrected from the remaining CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR/WHITE FOUNTAIN residue lingering maybe even in the thorns that shared Severian's blood - somebody planted that shit and grew a wondrously nasty garden, maybe.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070948208997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Pas was possessing Sand. Silk — I have come to believe — is a clone of Typhon. When Silk wonders if the gods can come to Blue, it’s ironic because he’s already there.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA5NTUyMzM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">2</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070955233997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> I agree Typhon is his clone and the talk between him and scylla where they wonder if Typhon would forgive her is SO poignant because Silk says yes. It's like this proxy reconciliation</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070956198997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> you know what i mean. silk is his clone. And I am certain mucor is Scylla's because of the dreams - when Scylla is laid to rest, Mucor is too. The whipped horses in the carriage: Mucor and scylla</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070957118997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> i think the greenbuck was the Neighbor that resurrected Horn — that is, took his place.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070876048997&reply_comment_id=10156070963248997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/jordon.flato"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Jordon Flato</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Man oh man I have to re read these books for the nth time now.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070905533997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I totally agree that him leaving is freeing humanity from Typhon's tyranny</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070909223997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc</span></a> wrote: “That tower horn dies in with the broken plates is the matachin tower. “</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Horn and Silkhorn saw those towers from the inside and out. How would Silkhorn not recognize it as the same place? I guess you posit that Horn has left him by that point but that argument seems to require that Horn’s memories live on in Silk. So wouldn’t he remember? I think so. He’d at least feel something weird like he seems to often.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> My whole writeup is about his insane denial - he can’t even recognize who he is.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA5NzE2MTM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">1</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070971613997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> How much can a man deny? Is the title of it</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA5NzE3OTM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">1</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070971793997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Because he just can’t handle recognizing these hard truths - that humanity is all dead</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070972103997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Or that horn died for him</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070972643997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Who says he doesn’t recognize it? He knows more than he records throughout the story.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I say this as a point of debate. Although I believe soul travel is time travel, and there are technical problems with the Green Urth theory.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070975958997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> James have you read my revised one? It’s much much better and more convincing. Blue is a red herring- mars.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070979503997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The goddess of purity on green is the Virgin Mary. The story of mars and its hybridized trees is told in the tale of the boy called frog in which spring wing, mars, is born when a tree impregnates his mother. So the vanished people arose on blue but they are people from green/Urth and that city of the inhumi is Nessus</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070981888997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> When the people at dorp ask if silk is being a traitor to his race by helping windcloud, windcloud laughs and takes them to Urth.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070982418997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Time travel occurs when silk is talking to one of those girls, fava or mora, and slips back to see krait’s death but says he never met krait before, then watched him die. Straight up time travel right in the middle of a scene. Nuts</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070983958997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Doesn’t Green have two moons?</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA5ODQ5MjM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070984923997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc</span></a> A big problem for me is that someone familiar with Landers wouldn’t likely call Dilapidated towers landers. He distinctly mentions both towers and landers on green.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070984968997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James</span></a> yes. I believe he’s saying Mars hit Lune and absorbed it. The two moons could be fragments. But the gravity and orbital situation between Ushas would be all fucked if Mars was that close. Also somewhere someone points out the Red Sun system from Blue or Green. I forget where that happens though.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070989838997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> It's near the end, talking about visualizing it way out there and trying to find the light of the red sun whorl far away</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzA5OTEyMDM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070991203997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I’ll admit Mora and Fava’s involvement after Fava dies confuses the hell out of me.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070991323997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> but like i said, the narrator really doesn't know where he is</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070992113997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think I understand Fava. But you’d have to accept that Pike’Ghost in LS is soul traveling “Silkhorn” and future Oreb for you to find it credible.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070996223997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James</span></a> i’d need you to unpack that for me. I never gave much thought to Pike’s ghost.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156070998848997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Pike's Ghost is traveling with Oreb who flies out the window and fades away (Silk's Oreb is has a busted wing and denies he went upstairs). Silk is awakened by Mucor. In On Blue's Waters, Mucor goes looking for Silk. Who she finds is "Silkhorn" (a name I don't like but that ship has sailed) at Silk' manse. Silkhorn tells Mucor to tell Horn not to come looking for him because HE KNOWS it is lethally dangerous -- he's seen it already.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071020648997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James</span></a> wait, in OBW mucor reaches Silk not Silkhorn. Silkhorn isn’t until the Neighbors send his spirit when he dies in the tower. I do remember something weird about seeing oreb and then Oreb denying it.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071027618997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Mucor says she found Silk. And she did. Anybody on Blue can tell you that is Silk. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Horn leaves to get to the Whorl.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Horn sends Mucor to find Silk. She soul travels in a way that is analogous to Silkhorn and meets him in the astral plane (maybe she can't time travel without Silkhorn). </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Horn goes on and dies in a pit. Replaced by a Neighbor. Becomes Neighbor-Man.Get's his "son" Krait.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Neighbor-Man goes to Green. Dies.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Neighbor-Man calls to the Neighbors with his magic ring. They can't repair the body again. So they send him to Silk's body which is about to vacated. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Adventures on the Whorl returns to Blue.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">When Silkhorn meets Mucor in his timeline could have occurred just about anytime after that, including after the end of the book.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071052268997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> (My reading of Pike’s ghost is that it is silk going backwards in time with oreb, pretty much.)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071052733997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_1.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b3c77708-b1ac-487b-868c-58e3b6eaed15" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Wynn</span></a> when she soul travels to Silk he hasn’t gotten Horn yet. That’s all I’m saying. But yes, everyone else in the story knows where Silk is. It even says it in the first few pages when it’s easy to misunderstand.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071057948997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> But.... given that dream travel is time travel, why does it matter what hasnt' happened yet. Pike's Ghost appears before any of this happens.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzEwNjIwNjg5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">2</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071062068997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Short sun is a pain in the ass to talk about lol</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzEwNjg5MDg5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071068908997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_5.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/adb662a1-2c1f-4991-aeb9-852b621f4acd" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Here's the the thing about LS-SS: It's a sequel to tBotNS. That is a cyclical book. It shouldn't be a surprise that this is too.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzEwNzI0OTM5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071072493997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/b44c5d1b-5199-42c4-895d-84252336b5f7" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think it is even more circular than James does. A big, big circular trip on the whorl.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=ZmVlZGJhY2s6MTAxNTYwNzA2OTg5Njg5OTdfMTAxNTYwNzEwNzU3MDg5OTc%3D&av=671137533"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;"><i><br />
</i></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(100, 105, 117); color: #646975;">2</span></a><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071075708997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_4.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/a214aef1-f418-41a8-b51b-db71507282cb" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> You believe Silk won't admit he isn't Horn because he can't handle that Horn sacrificed himself, died, for him. The reason this doesn't quite feel right is that it would seem that Silk would at some level know that he has nearly primed Horn so that he would be very willing to sacrifice himself for Silk, eager to do it even, perhaps to show himself that Silk's last encouragement that he do so, suicide himself for him, was something other than it was; so to get past a previous gross mishandling by him. Horn knew that whatever spell Silk'd cast on him was sufficient for him to put himself onto a ledge where he'd have a decent chance of dying, and we know him as someone who wrote his book almost as someone who was still trying to IMPOSE on Silk that he ostensibly mattered so much to him... he's a bit too eager to show how much Silk must have noticed him, almost as if he might be still uncertain... as if he'd had loud counterproof, which he actually had had. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">There is a sense almost that what Silk refusing to acknowledge himself as SIlk when he's Horn/Silk does is let someone else carry him through a great expanse of the journey, only to awaken at some later point when he's ready to appear; that is, as him almost doing the Pas bit. If he did kill himself over Hyacinth but then knew himself to be alive again, letting someone else take over for a long while would give him a chance to reset himself into some kind of acceptance. He pulls back into focus, as overtly, Silk, when he feels a bit more grounded, as he's now away from anything reminiscent of Hyacinth -- the whorl itself -- talking with someone who grounds him, is wise and experienced but whom also he doesn't fear, feels composed and relaxed around -- Remora, who's a spirit-brother to SIlk in that both had mothers who had high expectations of them to succeed; both had mothers who were highly deeply integrated into their whole adult lives, and were more important to them ultimately than any "Hyacinths" could ever be.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">For Silk to be so devastated at Horn's sacrifice.... feels almost like something Horn himself would inscribe into a text, to further prove his "obvious" worth to someone who had already showed he loved him so much he could be in mood to readily dispose of him so to be himself disposed of a depressive mood he no longer wanted to be caught in. It's Olivine insisting that her mother could still love her if only she proves more, offers more... really against the available evidence. All you've proved by doing so, as Rose admits at some point in the text, is that you're the perfect vehicle to be used and used and used again. Horn can say that Seawrack might have killed him for raping her as he would of done the same if he were in her place, but at some level you know when the person before you is built to take what you'll hand them, and so in truth this just amounts to recovering you as a good person and also as a taunt: further affliction of pain. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">"Moti came in with a little brass kettle and mint tea. I could have killed her, not because I have anything against the sweet child, but as a substitute for myself. I handed her my dagger and told her to stab me between the shoulder blades, because I lacked the courage to drive in the point. Bent my head and shut my eyes. What would I have done if she had obeyed?"</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">This to me is not about an instinct for suicide, but about a large ability to make psychological torture of a young human being who half worships you, in order to push yourself ultimately out of your mood. Silk may have known that if he had Horn back in him, then he was both alive and now, unlike before, had a "Moti" available to him who could be used in whatever way necessary to keep him from succumbing again into attacking his own self until that mood has passed. The particular way he made use of Horn was to keep him at the forefront until he had recovered his poise and was ready to take-over. He wouldn't need to worry about Horn taking over the conglomerate (I know you argued Horn actually isn't there anymore anyway) because Horn would be satisfied as if his life was now completed; he did his bit where he had summed it up as something which had offered more than most people would ever know, and all that. He had accepted his story as over with it showing him as overall in good account. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Silk invited upon himself the horde of inhumi horde and made gross use of Juganu to do so, but though he says he had hoped it would lead to his death it really seems of no surprise to me that it actually lead to the death of others. For him to go off on an adventure, it's best to do so after an attack has been invited upon "you," and where there will be scores of other people to present themselves as more available... as weaker targets, victims, because it'll be done after a price was paid. You get the fresh start that Wolfe knew as someone whose early adult years were after the Depression and World War Two. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #294387; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">If SIlk is so affected at what he might have done to others he loved -- "I killed their father" -- then why isn't so much of the text about his reminiscing on Mora's being gang-raped after being encouraged into sudden action by his encouragements and counselling. The text conveniently shows her, this girl who's barely a woman and who is desperate for any friend at all, not being all that adversely affected by it, so we don't need to think much of it if we don't want. But still, it shouldn't stop us from expecting that if Silk could be driven to deny his whole existence over what he'd made Horn do, that he'd have been nearly as set awry by what he'd done to Mora; what he'd effectively "lured" her into doing (I'm not quite being fair in this interpretation, I know). But again, there's so little register... he feels bad about it but really just seems to walk away. The same too about putting a knife into his bride's hands and instructing her to kill him... no thought on what this must have done to disorient her... and all his brides are described as girlish, frightened and timorous.... and Silk knew that for example being grossly used as a prostitute had for example made Hyacinth -- a young, vulnerable person at the time herself -- into someone so discombobulated she ended up hating all men other than Silk.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071880773997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #151719;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> an interesting reading.</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156070970653997&reply_comment_id=10156071910328997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/wynn.james"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>James Wynn</b></span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/d2159e27-b053-409f-9bb3-13572ad87d6a" /></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> On time-travel, dream-travel, and Mucor. Something I just remembered.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I have a side hypothesis, that when Mucor leaves to look for Silk, he's already died. Even on my first reading, I detected that the timeline seemed screwy. Hoof or Hide carefully details how long it was after Horn left before they went look for him and how long it took to find him. And, curiously, the time seemed way to short to me. I have a speculation that there is a significant period of overlap lap of Horn looking for Silk and fighting on Green for the lander and the events of RttW. It's not necessary for Silk to have been dead when Mucor goes looking for him, but it would make a little *more* sense and it might explain the weird timeline issues.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> If Silk leaving was freeing Typhon's tyranny, it is also them losing the person we've had described as the difference maker for mankind. With Silk around, people really might just manage to be their best selves, is what we've been lead to believe. Silk's leaving FELT right at the end... and this may reveal that what actually FEELS right about him, is that ultimately he depart so that others have a chance to grow. Silk has always been someone who seems to make himself master of whatever situation he is in, so they'll all have to listen to his fifteen points about this and that in its entirety. We probably all feel that it's probably okay we're free of him for awhile, for ourselves having had his company the whole time and often situating ourselves not in him but in the people who submit to him. We didn't want Silk to displace Bison and Mint on the whorl, because we liked their spot, and we don't want him over-arching "his" children's new lives, either. His leaving gives them all the air they need to breathe.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156071071573997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> Mark I just finished your Short Sun Thesis. It's really great. I got a lot out of reading it. I'm very happy to see you're thoughts ultimately deal with the symbolic intent in the plot, rather than just trying to find answers to riddles. I get pretty sick of the elaborate theories people make up to fill the lacunae in Wolfe's books while not discussing the real meat and potatoes of symbol and meaning. You're thesis doesn't fall into that, which is refreshing. Some of the ideas I've rejected previously are more compelling now, and I like the fact that you don't outright insist on your solutions being the only reading. You anticipate the rebuttals too, such as my rebuttal that Horn is still in Silk for the astral travels. Well done. In reading your nutshell answers here on facebook I worried that you would fall into that trap. I mean, you've said more or less that the SS is about the crossbreeding of plant and animal to bring about the Green Man / Heirogrammates of a post human future (sorry if that paraphrase isn't fair) but the actual thesis doesn't make that the top point. That you frame that as a deeper part of what the book is about, one that resonates with what it is clearly "about" at a surface level, that of becoming a better person, or that of humanity becoming better people. I neglected to mention that in my post about the themes, but that is clearly the theme of the Solar Cycle at large. So even if I don't want to accept that the "hidden" story has ANYTHING to do with Lianas, Heirogrammates or Ushas=Green, I can accept the ideas because they don't alter that main theme, they expand upon it. That said, I'm much more willing to entertain those hidden plot ideas after reading your thesis. You make a good case that your ideas are supported and not contradicted by the text. I have to accept this as a legitimate reading of the text. Many times I've read people's thoughts on the hidden plot that skew so far from what seems to be the author's intent, but as wild as these ideas are, they don't cross purpose with the intent I sense when I read these books. That's a lot of work you've done. Thank you for sharing it with us. I hope you can get those published. (I still need to finish the Long Sun one.)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156072652518997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Thanks so much for reading and for these kind words - this has been a BIG bugbear on my shoulders for years. Glad you enjoyed it ! I'm almost done with the project - Mostly through Evil Guest and then only Land Across left. I hope you enjoy the other writeups!</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156072652518997&reply_comment_id=10156072690163997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Mike Bennewitz</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> I have to admit to not having read those newer books. I keep rereading the solar cycle. I think I'll reread Latro next.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156072652518997&reply_comment_id=10156072700463997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> I'm really proud of my Latro writeup too let me know when you are done ;)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156070698968997/?comment_id=10156072652518997&reply_comment_id=10156072705203997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></li>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-63745895914568177802019-01-14T07:13:00.002-08:002019-01-14T07:13:48.786-08:00Wolfe as Catholic <div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: #ebedf0; color: #16191f; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none;">During... perhaps especially Bobby Kennedy's heyday, establishing someone as fundamentally Catholic would probably tell you not all that much... it might even lean towards making you assume they're a version of today's "social justice warrior"; someone who advocates for the forgotten, and is a voice of the young upsurge. (The youngest American president in history, Kennedy, was elected at the precise time America left its '50s consolidation period, and launched into political, leftwing, youth-oriented, explosiveness, and he and his brother were a big part of that voice.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Today I don't think we should be blind to realizing that establishing him as fundamentally Catholic, could be a way of orienting him almost as an agent of the counter-reformation... of a weapon against the voice of the young, which is today again and again and again, exposing the Catholic church as so suspiciously rearguard in our contemporary effort to create an environment where the abused aren't any longer afraid to point a finger at the abusers; where we don't any longer protect abusers from understanding themselves as they are -- not caretakers we must cling to, but criminals to lock up. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">That may not be "your" Catholicism, and maybe something of what the current Pope is doing, or represents, is counter to the "Spotlight" one, but even if it isn't, I do think this should work as as a reason to be more or less okay if today the effort to establish Wolfe as fundamentally Catholic is not especially successful, even if you feel it is simply pin-point accurate, and ultimately, in the ideal environment, helps our best understanding of his work. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Here would be Wolfe as... let's call it a Kennedy-era Catholic (or as Bobby Kennedy): when he in Peace shows a young man, abandoned by his mother and father as they set off on a world tour for an indeterminate period of time, and lands him with an aunt who'll do such things as casually expose herself to him, almost in the manner of a Jahlee upon Hoof, or a Hyacinth upon Horn, and never makes him feel like he isn't anything more than a transient in her midst, and conveys a sense that something hugely wrong is being done here, and that it's something to speak out against, rather than claim as a reason to believe yourself worthy of some such as God's pity (I'm so small and little... and there is no response: pity me!). Reading that, I felt him someone who become a pain to today's Catholic church, in pointing out again and again and again, how the priests are being protected at the expense of the young, and how it must stop. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Here would be Wolfe in today's "Spotlight" context of the Catholic church: when he has Silk meet up with Marbe/Rose's daughter Olivine, who was abandoned by Marble/Rose so "they" could set off on her own adventures, and, at least through her incompleted body, evidently shows the effects of this abandonment, and has him discourage her away from feeling any resentment, and in fact has him manage her so that her potential current resentment at her is revealed as a great crime, as her being angry at someone behaving admirably, rightly, dutifully, saintly, which seems to prompt her into be in mind to not see her abandoner as a victimizer but as someone who might actually give her the love she hoped to find from her if only she offers even more of herself to her. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Here, with Silk sounding like one of the creepy church men in "Spotlight" who has a chance to get a hold of the victim before anyone else has a chance to counsel her, and further with his mind much more on placating the Marble/Rose conglomerate, who's already had a full life of marriages and children -- they couldn't be conned out of having that! -- and not on "their" other victim, Mucor, who like Olivine has received very little and whom Silk/Horn knows is not in fact really being taken care of by Marble/Rose but serving as her nursemaid, this is Wolfe as Catholic in the way a lot of people have come to understand it.</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-40039423209248020732019-01-13T15:57:00.000-08:002019-01-13T15:57:03.151-08:00Finished Short Sun<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #16191f; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none;">Finished Short Sun. First thoughts...</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Abandonment, deserting people, being deserted, is a big theme in "Short Sun" (not loyal to me? well, I'll just leave you here in this cellar on Green and watch you subsequently humiliate yourselves by clinging to me oh so desperately thereafter, praying I'll oblige your declared intention to forever after be my slave if only I don't leave you again!). Horn deserted his mother, and it's given complete validation in the text, for if he hadn't he would have remained -- his mother's preference for him -- a child forever. Repercussions for Horn? Not much. Because he ended up, with his and Nettle's paper business, doing so well for themselves, and having money to fund his siblings and his mother on Blue, we are told that she was simply proud of him (reminded me here of Winnoc's sending money home, actually). Lesson: you are right to ascribe dark motives to your parents? You are right to act violently -- abandonment being a form of violence, for it devastates another person -- towards them? Yes, for Horn, and yes also for his wife -- who we are told was simply hated by her mother as soon as she was born, and thus her given name. No, however, for others.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Marble/Rose's daughter, Olivine, was abandoned by her mother, leaving her living the life of a lonely "ghost"... so a fate akin to Mucor's, and Horn/Silk argues FOR the parent, FOR Marble/Rose, saying she was simply fulfilling her duty to Pas, and therefore, it is implied, doing something worthy. He does this, ascribes good motives for a parent's obeying a deity at the cost it would do to your child's mental equilbrium/sanity (does he compound it by luring her into giving her eye?, into, not validating the harm that had been inflicted on her but on what she could yet give to the person who abandoned her?) even as just earlier he had claimed our admiration in being so ready to disown himself of any automatic loyalty to the godlings, in fact wondering why anyone would have to assume they have any claim on "our" loyalty at all, simply for being more powerful than "we" are. Scylla has no loyalty to her father... having tried to in fact murder him, but her claim that he was simply a slave-driver is rebutted in the text, with Hoof likening it to what Sinew always used to say about Horn, whom, he declares, was actually someone who always provided, always supplied, with Sinew being the one with the real problems... ingratitude, irresponsibility, open defiance, and all the rest.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Horn admits to no actual high motive, no requisite duty, in deciding to leave his wife and his sons behind, two of whom, just like Sylla, are at that age where they are not yet adults but leaving childhood... where being around as a father to offer an alternative to the maternal realm is essential for boys to become men, what his own father, however scary he was, nevertheless offered him; he really just wanted to see Silk again, and was ready to anoint himself the only logical choice even if several other better ones had sprung to mind. Adding to this abandonment, he... again like his own father, takes a new wife, but one -- unlike Nettle, who isn't pretty, and certainly isn't young any more -- who rivals Hyacinth in her beauty, and is thus as beautiful as a woman can become, and also half his age, and, conveniently, also, owing to her deep suspicion of everyone else, someone who will only ever have eyes for him; is feral towards everyone else. Repercussions? Nettle as furious... you had a f*cking harem (yes dear, it was forced on me, I swear!)!!!??? Horn becoming a moral lesson on how not to behave? Someone who's end fate, so horrible, it got developed into a fable, one told at table dinners to scare people into right conduct?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">No, his thoughts upon returning are more on how much New Viron owes him; how he himself had been used at departure, not how he might of been making use of anyone else (New Viron gets posited as the site of "badness" as he nears his return, not, then, so much himself). And why not? For he meets up with her again in the bodily form of a completely different human being, one belonging to someone she venerates as much as he does. And if she yet cusses... well, then, she's cussing a corpse, which, as we're told earlier in the text, with the fable of the man who spears his rival's buried corpse, is the absolute worst thing you could ever do. Lesson? Leave your family behind to date a hot young babe, driving around in the body of someone who's, compared to you, a ferrari -- silver fox Silk himself! -- only to lose her to adopt an actual harem of beautiful women, and return to your middle-aged wife only to sprinkle her with with more needling "nettles," via Jahlee's soon-applied vampiric puncture-wounds... and what do you get?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Naturally, to leave everyone behind again, on your new adventure... those that survived, at least, for innocently you had previously brought upon everyone the full rain of a inhumi invasion. You get rewarded for not, as he argues at one point in full praise of himself, being someone who clings. Virtue applied fairly to everyone else? Do Hoof and Hide not cling? Well they too leave Nettle, but they are directed to... and get scolded -- don't tell me you abandoned your mother!!! -- by Horn for doing so. They also have to agree to call Horn/Silk father, even though they never quite think he is, rather just the guy they have to call Father. Have to oblige elders, or bad! Horn/Silk of course saves for himself the right to determine how he himself will be addressed -- you're not however to call me Silk! Like not ever! The right to keep fidelity with how he understands himself and how he understands others, is for him alone.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Horn abandons Sinew on Green, but it's pretty clear it's pretty much pro-active... Sinew would soon have little interest in him as well (or do you disagree?). Repercussions? For Sinew, yes. He gets ascribed in the text that will be circulated about him as a fundamentally ungrateful son to a difficult but still provisioning dad, as THE petulant son who wouldn't oblige his parent's wishes, rather than Horn himself, who ultimately was the same with his own mother, and be thought of, not as a leader on Green, our first presentation of him there, but rather the one that develops where he's someone who would be managed and owned by the Triv. in town, possibly ultimately including his own wife, who's Trig, and so doesn't do "wife's" work, and getting fatter and fatter to boot.. a coming sign of a dominating personality. It's quite possible that he'll to some extent be the child there that Horn himself escaped being with his own departure from home. Sinew is the moral lesson. He's the one who, for the crime of defying his parents, of performing patricide/matricide (it is noted that he enjoyed playing tricks on his mom), gets sucked into isolated, lonely, sad coldness of a villainously warm hell, whereas the rest of his siblings enjoy genuine bounty, good health, prosperity, and a mother and father who unambiguously love them -- a warm hearth of a family photo from which "you" get exempted.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">(New Viron so evil as a town because it bears on the "Sinew"... would never oblige a "good person" ruling them? Is Dorp so good because it bears on the "Hide/Hoof"... ready to behave so manageably, so long as under "good" leadership, like Horn/Silk would provide? How is the "bad child/ good child" dynamic projected onto the landscape? Good children should serve as parent's acreage -- what Hide/Hoof/Daisy/Vasig amount to for Horn -- unless you yourself are the child?)</span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/gerryleb"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Gerald P Leb</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> At the conclusion of Long Sun we have Horn's view of the main characters we have come to feel we know. His view of them is totally different. Unreliable narrators at every hand!</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> It is important to distinguish horn abandoning people and silk leaving them when he realizes he is silk and that his presence makes typhon’s return a threat. Horn leaves the silkhorn conglomerate when he sits under the tree, the vanished god, at the end of OBW, fleeing into babbie to become the beast with three horns. Suddenly all the narrator can think about is hyacinth dead, but when Horn first came into the body hyacinth dead in front of him didn’t bother him at all. After this point, silk can’t accept that his son figure/student has sacrificed himself so he could live. Sacrifice of child is a huge theme in the books and echoes sacrifice of Christ the son to redeem - see multiple eucharist scenes. Silk frees auk offscreen, who repairs the lander, to die on blue at the hands of shitty people and for chenille to be preyed upon in dorp.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/742fe45b-5e14-443f-8c91-781be56523d2" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Silk does say that Pas's return is inevitable, though, whether now or a century hence. He says he wants to leave because he doesn't really want to face Horn's sons, making him actually akin to Horn in that Horn never really has to face Nettle with what he did to her, in changing her up for someone much younger and more beautiful in Seawrack and Evensong. Nettle does the great thing, in encouraging Hide and Hoof to seek him out, rather than scolding them to remain with her. It denies her companions, means loneliness for her, but gives them their due proper masculine development (something her husband was for awhile willfully forgetting about)... and ultimately enfranchises them with adulthood, with homes, wives and what-not. In return Horn would come home having seen the sights he longed to see -- Silk -- and as well a retinue of beautiful women with him. It might have given him a sense that if he could be forgiven that he could be forgiven anything, but, still, not being up to the encounter, he dodges. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Where is the part about Auk and Chenille finding their way onto Blue? Can you link me to a relevant page?</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Psychology of why characters do such and such, has to be reasoned with consideration as to what purpose they serve Wolfe himself, how he is involving himself in the text, whom he is living through. For instance if it wasn't Mora who gets gang-raped after, more or less, following through on Horn/Silk's advice, but someone the author Wolfe might be more inclined to be living through... someone like Horn, for instance, would it have been allowed to textually occur? Wolfe is in these people, to some extent, and it affects how the story might otherwise go if he was different or found some way to ensure more remove.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062288208997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> This is subtext Patrick. The woman Jahlee preys on in dorp, auk’s ghost, and the ring all show up at the same time. Page 155 is where Jahlee has just preyed upon chenille and left her in the alley, very end of chapter 7. Readers are supposed to think chenille is still in the basement but she is on blue preyed upon by Jahlee as she mourns her children and probably auk.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062433558997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> Right, they do show up. What is your reasoning as to why this is off-screen? The effect in the text is more wizardly, more astonishing, more wondrous, but everyone would want to know how these two vital characters got freed up.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062455693997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Post 2000 Wolfe REALLY likes to leave out connecting details. He makes you work for every resolution and the thing is that we are supposed to be left wondering if it is the same ring just as we are supposed to be left wondering if this blue and green planet system is Urth and lune. It almost lines up but not quite - so to draw conclusions, we have to make assumptions about silk’s character. Would he really leave them there? If you think so, this is a different girl, a different ring. If you don’t, we know what the ring is - it is horn’s Even though it looks different at first</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062459573997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I view silk as a hero so of course it’s the same ring ;)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062460813997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> I agree there is no way either Horn or Silk would leave them to their dark fates, but our encounter with Silk is with him as mostly passive as he enters "Sinew's" village. There's an unusually genuine modesty about him, as if he were there merely to introduce himself and wish people well -- not my village, but Sinews'! -- that disarms us from thinking he connived some means to free Chenille (we've seen this in Silk before, as well, when he's on stage with the Triv. leaders in "Epiphany."). There's a live and left live aspect about him here, an unwillingness to best anyone, that gets echoed when he remorsefully delineates what he expects Sinew's own eventual fate to be. Not much he'll be able to do about it.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I think that it is only the fact that work was made to disarm us that we "accept" that Chenille and Auk could possibly remain doomed on Green, that they wouldn't actually be rescued, for otherwise it couldn't possibly have come across as a surprise, which it does. There's this sense that Sinew's fate, his world, is being left to him, as Horn/Silk focusses now on the children who'll remain with him. Sounds like what happened with Wolfe in regards to his own children. One he didn't dare intrude on, the others, remain still with him. I base this only the little I've been told here at this facebook group.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062471043997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_2.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/742fe45b-5e14-443f-8c91-781be56523d2" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The stuff you're talking about with different rings and subtext escapes, is there in the text... but it's your realm. At some point in reading the books the reader wonders if he/she can make do without deciphering it all... especially if some part of one's mind tells you the relevance may not be THAT significant, that the emotional import of events remains present and appreciated, and'll get overlooked, overpowered, worked against, by efforts to further delve (if Silk saved Chenille, we come to learn this for certain, are we as much able to keep in mind how truly deferent he is amongst those in Sinew's village?). I think this is where Wolfe scholarship currently is... more work needs to be done studying/examining the relationships at work, the motivations, to catch up with what is already fairly developed in terms of why this? why that? Once there's a better distribution of involvement, then I think I'll be more glad for the work you've done on puzzling things we noticed about the text that you've thought fully on, fascinating material, like the matter of the two rings.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062488953997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> You can’t figure out certain relationships without solving the puzzles. Why does babbie embrace horn’s Son and throw down the sailor who attacks him violently? I can explain why. Why does silk (initially) love hyacinth beyond all reason? There are mechanistic plot details that illuminate relationships and motivations. And until those are unearthed, those relationships are misread</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062512178997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The problem is that in a text which plays so much with identity (we even get a scylla- Typhon reconciliation via silk and oreb!) you have to really hone in on which identities are doing what.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062518013997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> And the theme is of course catholic proxy: not quite the scapegoat, but the redeeming sacrifice. This is GOOD sacrifice because without sin there is no reconciliation, without death no eternal life etc. modern readers have a really really tough time with this (or so it seems to me) because the goal is to minimize suffering rather than transform it into closeness to God.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062521103997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Vasily Ingogly</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> "At some point in reading the books the reader wonders if he/she can make do without deciphering it all" - I think that's what's most remarkable about Wolfe's accomplisment: that the story works and is a great story without all the deciphering, and (quoting John Crowley's "Little, Big"), the further in you go, the bigger it gets.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062532308997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Vasily Ingogly</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> - I don't think many modern readers get the Christian themes of Lord of the Rings, either: lembas as a sort of eucharist, the sacrifice and redemption involved in the destruction of the Ring, Galadriel as a type of the Mother of God, some of the dates that translate to major Christian feasts in our calendar, and so on.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062536503997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> (concerning your first post) That's a fair reply, Marc. Credit to you if I would be aided in furthering involving myself in thinking on these particular relationships, getting to the point where I've thought on it enough to know whether to credit you on such and such a view, or not (I'm going to take another look at what you said about Silk obsessing about Hyacinth and then not... or was it the reverse? for instance; I can't recall that, and maybe it does reveal something I'd like to know. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Still, I think I am showing that there is plenty that is available to all, to be discussed, which involves stopping on points, encounters we are witnessing, that others that have explored his work thoroughly thought basically not worth exploring, and that this effort can be impeded if they are made to feel that "all will be revealed" if only they defer commentary and think more on how -- and, sincerely, not to mock you -- Blue is Earth or Mars or some such. As I mentioned at one point, Druissi thought the father-son relationship between Sinew and Horn basically unremarkable, when many of us are shocked at it, for it being transparently a very twisted thing, even if once the norm. The Wisconsin kid... the guy Wolfe brings up all the time, mentioned amongst all his wondrous adventures in Wolfe's texts how frequently the subject of pedophilia comes up. He eventually explored it, but in a short piece. Credit to him, but to a different audience this would have been an obvious place to involve oneself in exploring from the start... children as sacrificed to obvious predators, and the text having a not-so-clear stance on it; the effort at defence, can seem a bit lacking in vitality, as if for "you" to live someone vulnerable has to know the like of the gang-rapes that Mora is lured into inviting upon herself (this said, again, I mostly like how Silk engaged with her). There's someone in the urth archives who talked about how they had an experience of chalk on blackboard when they encountered Hyacinth's letter to Silk, and this too, of someone of experience, of education, seeming strangely to prefer characters less adept as they are, is something that could always have been discussed with Wolfe -- it's apparent in the latter part of Short Sun as well, with Horn/Silk seeming to spend so much time with young people (Mora, Hide, Vasig) who aren't as equipped to challenge him as much as Sinew and Krait were -- but really hasn't been. Silk argues that no one, not Hyacinth, not anyone, is more important to him that his mother, yet... how much exploration of the effect of mal or pro-mothering has there been until now? Anyway, this is a bit of a ramble, but you get my point.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062541293997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The issue with mother is that ... kypris is mother, so she dominates everything including his feelings for hyacinth. This once again the puzzle solving nature causing a resonance that is more than his vironese mother. She influences him in everything and is even the voice of doves behind his enlightenment.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062550098997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> And that realization is really what prompts part of his suicidal despair: that everything, even enlightenment, is a lie ... of mother and father.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062550533997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Vasily Ingogly</span></a> And, thought I say this in respect to Marc, it is possible that some of those who miss many details that I would wish they've thought more about, may be cany to some very important elements as to how Wolfe's mind works, that we might feel empowered to ignore if the only thing we do here is salute the massive-decipherers. Some people can have a very good take on Wolfe and point it out quickly on goodreads, which we should be in mind to receive with respect, FOR knowing that a lot of what is important about Wolfe, about what he is trying to communicate, is most accessible to those who know people well, and they might be ones who don't explore some of the things we might prefer they explore, because somewhere in their astute minds they deciphered there wasn't actually much profit in it, that more profit was involved in exploring the like of what effect such and such had on a character, why they behaved the way they do... which involves introspection into one's own life, not only further delving into the text.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062550788997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Even love for hyacinth is an artificially enforced mother love because of kypris</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062552868997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Can extrapolations about mother in a text with two mothers be accurately made if we do not identify one mother and her manipulative actions accurately? I think that is the challenge of Wolfe. I usually don’t understand character motivations until the puzzle aspects click, then that network opens insight into the denials and affirmations of character. I’m not just in it to solve the puzzles; I want to understand the themes and characters as well, and that is what I try to do.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062564768997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Vasily Ingogly And does this mislead, or help? Is it really so important to know, or does it provide the illusion of illumination, enable reads that are actually great misreads, but immune to dissent for requiring others' full knowledge of Christian texts in order to reach them, and the people who'd do that, more or less ensured to be of the same persuasion as yourself, especially these days.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062588878997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Vasily Ingogly</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> - Are the object relations and other modern psychological interpretations you extract from your readings of Wolfe's texts more essential to understanding his works than the Christian belief system that underpins his work? In what way exactly is a Christian reading of Wolfe or Tolkien providing an "illusion of illumination" and leading the reader astray?</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">As far as I can see, you can read his work either way - that's why there are so many people running around with advanced degrees in English Lit. And it's why you have neopagans and New Agers reading and enjoying Tolkien, and probably Wolfe as well. If you choose to read Wolfe through the lens of modern psychology, fine - but that doesn't mean it's the "right" way to read Wolfe. Assuming that's what you're getting at.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062664163997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> One of my arguments is that Wolfe is poking fun at a multiplicity of viewpoints by writing what might be construed as postmodern “destabilized”narratives which are syncretized and unified by symbols of creed and the collective unconscious, completely closed texts. Urth of the New Sun IS Augustinian theodicy. People are free to read it incorrectly, but we are also free to mock them. Bwahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha. Wolfe is a quintessentially Christian writer - he even made the Latro books truly about Jesus and the Pax Roman, transforming the historical details of oebazus’ sacrifice to ares into a redemptive arc which oebazus survives.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062721963997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Vasily Ingogly To a certain extent, "object relations" is code for arguing that we pay attention to people, how they relate to one another, and insight isn't only provided by those who've made a science of it but from people who are simply very perceptive and capable of un-skewed introspection of themselves. Not a school of literature studies, but looking at Wolfe from those who've been schooled in literature informed by profound knowledge of how people think/behave... so literature as it is normally understood, in general, is what I'd advocate for... are you alive to why people do what they do? It is true that to anyone in literature studies, there is basically no such things as legitimate Catholic explorations of a work, for to most people in literature studies Catholicism amounts to conspiracy which hides and legitimizes abuse and buttresses the moral standing of abusers. So, to them, Catholic readings of Wolfe would necessarily undermine him, amount to dextrous skewing of the text, to a legitimized wilful avoidance of much that is there in the text, for they saw much that was worthy of him despite their distaste of the Catholic faith and Christianity in general and know well that that's not the Catholicism in him speaking (think of Michael Bishop and LeGuin's taking of Wolfe, for example). There is no denying that most people doing literature studies are atheist/agnostic, and firmly left. Object relations would be a legit. school to them (Winnicott is the one now becoming fashionable), because it represents what they believe true -- the importance of good nurturing; the the firm suspicion of the ostensible necessity of hard lessons -- and not Catholicism, for they'd see it as a framework built out of those who've not had the kind of parenting they ought to have experienced. To them, if in your own life you knew too many Pas's or Echidna's... if your own parents actually resembled them, you're going to inevitably create a religion focussed on a powerful deity who only might accept you, so long as you turned attention away from their faults and focused on yourself as the one ostensibly built of sin. Do that, and the Pas or Echidna whose love you need to claim in life, might just decide to attend to you. Sorry if this offends, but I think everything I'm saying here is a fair rep. of the discipline, and of my own concerns that are aroused when we are directed as to how Wolfe can be illuminated through greater awareness of the Catholic faith.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> If fundamentally a Christian writer, why was he so well received by Disch, Bishop, Kim Stanley Robinson and Le Guin, people who don't exactly bleed reverence to Catholicism/Christianity. They weren't drawn to the Christianity without knowing it, were they?</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> so would you deny that Wolfe is a Christian writer? Or merely that he is fundamentally a Christian writer? Do those guys like Dante or Milton? Because art transcends creed, but understanding art doesn’t, in my opinion.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Is it controversial to call Dante a fundamentally Christian writer?</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062781543997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> These are fair retorts, for sure. All major writers in the past were Christian, for once, everyone was. But... so many of them were avant-garde... the progressive thinkers, the "left," of their time. With some authors, when we call them Christian this doesn't elide our still mostly thinking of them as potentially progressive... you can call Dickens Christian all you want (no doubt he was), and no one would think by labelling him that that you've id'd him as against the tide of the new rethinking on the ostensible worthiness of suffering, of poverty. And so you don't have to object that something is being skewed by identifying him as Christian. Christianity with him and many others, doesn't work against our sense of the rightfulness of creative originality... of bringing something new and brilliant that draws attention to itself, in a world viewed by some as built of sin. This is not true with Wolfe, however. Identifying him as fundamentally Christian and not someone who is, or can be, fundamentally of great interest to major progressive writers, means, today, in my judgment, working against our fully appreciating his art, for you apply this successfully to him during this time when most Christians are skewing more and more "conservative," you're making for an "appreciation" of him that likely reveals a deep suspicion of original thinking, of hutzpah... of art, of in any way standing out at all ("spoiled snowflake"). If the Catholics get Wolfe now, in this age of penance that is now beginning... we've forgotten our country, don't you know? in my judgement Wolfe-studies will regress in relevance. As odd as his assessments might sometimes be, we'd find ourselves at a time when we could only pray for a student of Wolfe as original as a Borski, which would be oh so very sad, for as huge an appreciator of him as I am, much better yet awaits.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156062806533997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Vasily Ingogly</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> By the way, Winnicot is not "just now becoming fashionable". When I did my graduate work in clinical psych twenty years ago (my second career was as a therapist), he was a standard part of the curriculum. So yes, indeed, some of us know what object relations theory is all about -- we just find psychological analyses of works of art tiresome. Chacun a son gout.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156063167718997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Vasily Ingogly</span></a> Fashionable in literary studies, which I find very encouraging. For the longest time it seemed like it was only Lacan, but now the psychology I find most profitable is finding its way into the most prestigious journals. I find your own history extremely interesting, but I'm broadly aware of the history of psychoanalysis. It's too bad you belong to the small group who've been so overexposed you've come to find it tiresome, because outside of niche it's very rarely seen, and never, previously, with Wolfe. Lots and lots of Catholic exegesis, though. And I don't like it, because it seems to have been allowed to represent some definitive end to all possible plumbing.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156063985033997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I don’t think anything has been allowed, Patrick. More people read Wolfe like Peter Wright as a critique of organized religion than read him like me. The alzabo soup guys present the garden hut scene as a critique of missionary work (lol). I’ve fought for credibility for my readings for decades. If you chose not to read catholic themes in Wolfe’s work there are plenty of options. Wolfe is a Catholic writer however, and Christianity, for all that you think it codes for “abuse” has a golden rule or two about love. Nick gevers in his thesis argues Wolfe undercuts universals and creeds. I’m the stubborn one who insists his work is quintessentially orthodox in its theology and that it works to subvert relativity with underlying universals. Write the criticism you want on Wolfe then, but know that some people understand the books.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> For me, considering Wolfe begins New Sun with a torturer that is profoundly determined as a person by being abandoned by his mother as an infant (this, again, though something I myself did sense in the text, is also something Wolfe explicitly stated about Severian... even as apparently it met with deaf ears), and Long Sun, with a main protagonist who articulated his mother as someone who was mostly caught in her own sorrows, with a father who was so infrequently seen so as to be almost unknown, and an antagonist bent on revenge against his own abandoning mother, and then Short Sun with a father abandoning his children just as they are about to really need his masculine influence to help them grow properly, as they broached adulthood, I'm obviously not going to agree that he is, if by it we mean belief in something other than one's own parents as primary, of the love they did or did not give you, primarily a "Catholic" writer. If we mean by "Catholic" that he believes in the necessity of a strong father as counter-influence to the Mother, whether projected out onto the skies or not, then there's something to be said for it, for it gets articulated I think by Silk at some point (and how could he not do so, when every time he has sex he thinks of Echinda striking him dead); or if we mean by "Catholic" a sense of profound loneliness, owing to being abandoned, which is remedied by imagining there is someone out there who'll provide you the attention you need so long as you behave in such and such a way, then, sure, he is; but this isn't likely what you mean. You say that study of Wolfe is broader than I make it sound, but it strikes me that Catholics, or something Catholic in essence (wilful intention to overlook abuse even as it happening before your eyes, in order to show yourself of the parent's, of the predator's, point of view, and also so to deny that you've ever known what it to be possessed of the forlorn child's, even if done in a fashion which would seem immune to this sort of charge for seeming "progressive" in form -- for instance, with study of Wolfe's postmodern techniques), is right now carrying the day... and it means that a lot of "Teasels" and 'Mucors" out there in his text, are barely being reached at. I hope you get that what I think is full-out right in front of our faces, and has been the whole while, has barely been touched, and never head-on... so in a sense I believe that fundamentally there has of yet been no real understanding of his works. He put it out there, and everyone decided to look away. </span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I say this from my own survey, which isn't complete, but not cursory either. I would like to see applied to his works the power of the Bishops and LeGuins... people who speak for victims and are powerfully good, who would grant that there's a lot to what I'm pointing out about Wolfe, but which trespasses onto considerations of what we ourselves experienced in our childhoods... or that many of us have experienced, that we've for decades skilled ourselves at overlooking, not really attending to, for it being too unsettling. The rising influence of trauma studies, of <a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/metoo?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); color: #7a818c;">#</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">metoo</span></a>,... of support and interest in the victim, and the refusal of the longstanding insistence that the number of victims aren't actually legion, might eventually lead to a turn towards study of Wolfe that takes what is best and bravest in him, and bring it to full light... doesn't let it slip. Some part of him was trying to encourage us not to lie to ourselves, not to cover for others by minimizing the effects their treatment had on us, not to displace, not to sublimate, not to make a fetish of your pain... even if this left us at risk of oblivion... all our nerve-firings, completely ago. This was not something he could sustain, however... and his work itself is full of disguised projecting out of course -- read the Mothers!, the Echidnas (bad, dangerous mothers, projected out), the Bloods (bad son who refuses "your" parental desire that he not recognize your crimes) -- for it's too overwhelming, however exhilarating, to try and do so, and is probably relieved that no one has remained around to remind him that he had ever once even tried. This is probably the reason reason he's content to remain on the racks... to not be counted as a literary writer, as Ellison and LeGuin and Bishop so wanted for him, because there it is more likely people will see, and he'd be forced to reckon with the fact that deep within himself is not the "horn" Catholic but the "Silk" who spoke for the better good, even as it's usually your ruin to do so, and would prove his doom, now.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156064389933997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Marc, let me leave this conversation now because it might end up eliding the fact that I would ever be in the mood to read your study of Short Sun, which simply is not true; I am in the mood, and I will. I know that you made something different of Horn's "I captured the ball" than I did when I read it, and I think -- though I'd have to revisit it -- I might be in mood to also quarrel with your understanding of Babbie as revealed as in fact Horn, in the red sun whorl, but it is true that after I feel I've succeeded in clearly a space for people to feel less intimidated at exploring the whole realm of the effects of child abuse in Wolfe, reflected in how Wolfe unconsciously helps deny it AND in his overt efforts to provide it fair articulation, I'll be simply more glad of the time you've put in your efforts to hopefully clear away some of obfuscations in Wolfe so that the entirety of "his message" is open to thinking about, to consideration.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156064624803997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Certainly <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a>. I actually DON’T want to shut down discussions and say “this is the ONLY thing the text means”, because that kind of tyranny has little place in approaching a text that WILL mean different things to different people. The burden I place on my writeups is to get to as close to wolfe’s Intent as is humanly possible, because I believe it is discoverable, but if that isn’t what a reader needs from the text it shouldn’t be forced upon them.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061385088997&reply_comment_id=10156064819393997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Horn and krait developed a real relationship - sinew “betrayed” his father by seeking his own life, but in reality it was jealous horn who betrayed sinew, instigating the inhumi and using them against his son. The dream travel is also through time.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061386768997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I like Horn and Krait's friendship a lot, just as I like Horn's and Jahlee's as well. In the end, though, they both get done for and troublesome Sinew, fated too to something perhaps quite dark. There's a sense that everyone we'd care to know, or that I'd care to know, has disappeared, and the world left in a better place than before, less doomed, but absent the genius, the contestations, the cleverness, that made it interesting.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061386768997&reply_comment_id=10156062301378997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Which is how silk and Oreb show up in inclito’s mother’s story</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061386933997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> And how there is time to free auk</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061386988997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Fava and mora even tell him to save a cake for the dog in his dream at the start of rttw- the dog is triskele, not Cerberus.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061387403997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061387403997&reply_comment_id=10156061942448997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white; color: #151719;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> And green is post-new sun Urth, blue the biggest “red” herring in all of wolfe’s fiction, Mars, where the human- tree hybrids first arose in the tale of the boy called frog in new sun with the birth of spring wind/mars. So some of these themes involve denial of lost humanity and the necessity of death and rebirth as well as an inability to control and shape human destiny while still remaining free as an individual. Short sun is about mankind’s transformation into the hieros, which involves much pain and suffering for those left behind.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061393303997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/eli.aragon.7"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Eli Aragon</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> So bitter. Silk showed how he was in the first chapter of the long sun. Scammer to blood, worse to the butchers wife(cats meat) the augurs were foul creatures. Not honored, anymore than severian who insisted in the integrity of his guild.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061538883997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Interesting to hear your reaction.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/eli.aragon.7"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Eli Aragon</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I reread "the Belgariad" by Eddings for the first time in 20 years and I enjoyed it. I was surprised by the lack of detail sometimes but that made for an easy read. Those things that were unjust were mostly made right though. I was particularly struck by the serfdom and the Vo Mimbre knights</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156061543868997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> If Silk can't handle that Horn sacrificed his life for him (did he really sacrifice himself? It would seem all he did was allow himself to be transported into another body, to be part of a small conglomerate of two, with the knowledge that his soul was very much intact even as his former body was in tatters... that is, depending on the body, and the soul he accompanied, his situation might well have improved, might have seemed to him an acquisition, not a sacrifice, a loss), then why exactly did he lure Horn out onto the airship, where it almost cost him his life... he was VERY VERY eager to do that. And if he can't handle the young sacrificing for the old, then why is he overjoyed to see Olivine, who's an abandoned child and who already doesn't work right, who shows in how her body moves, in how it doesn't ever move quite right, the scars of being abandoned before she was ready for the world, sacrifice her eye to her abandoner.... who, being a composite of Marble and Rose, was already someone who made damn sure (Marble) she was never jipped out something essential in life (for her, marriage and a child), and already someone who'd had a history of abandoning children to their dark fates (Rose)?</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">I think the "explanation" for the refusal of his being Silk is rather that Wolfe himself, as he does with Able, who is always misunderstood to be a formidable adult rather than an awkward adolescent, and probably throughout his fiction, likes to contrive characters he can live through where people feel compelled to try and break through to him... he becomes, thereby, akin to Silk's own mother, who had her only son always trying to break through her self-absorption to please her. (Rose says at one point that this is the way to master people: orchestrate them into positions where they’re in mind to placate you, find themselves agreeable to things they normally wouldn’t be agreeable to, and for this you not only have them but are free to mock them over it, for they are fools who, having bit your lure, have shown they want to be dominated. Once Hide, who argues for ways of seeing things that are agreeable to a parent’s point of view -- he, without knowing he’s speaking to his father, argues that his father had extremely good, thoroughly defensible reasons whenever he behaved strictly/badly with his children -- agrees to call Horn/Silk Father, this to some extent is what he receives for it: Horn/Silk doesn’t quite call him tedious, but is surprised when ever he says something insightful; not only casually assumes there’s evil in him, but makes snide remarks about him as well [“He is not talkative, and is seldom entertaining when he does talk."] He also quite readily overpowers him when he feels the need.)</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Horn/Silk finds himself in many situations where he makes everyone feel hugely dependent on him for any chance at success (he whips them up on occasion, as seems to be what's involved in his deciding to capture Dorp's Nat... a gesture on a whim, on a moment of irritation at another's bothering him, which could have been handled differently, surely, which ended up with a whole human town, full of good people who work hard and behave but aren't smart enough to avoid bad leaders without counsel to guide them (arguable, considering his interest in clever Krait and Jahlee, but probably Horn/Silk's default favourite types, apparently), a pack of inhumi, as well as several Neighbours, appearing to show how much they so love Horn/Silk!, and then he retreats ("there was no reply"), forcing them to try and break through to him again. He admits he likes the feeling, for it's proof that he's wanted, loved... which is much, much better than being the person others end up finding fatiguing (quote for this somewhere in "return"). (Note: this isn’t quite right; he stages his self-retreat shortly before the court scene.) He mimics the parental gods, who require periodic loud demonstrations that they are loved (the great Outsider is also someone who'll pretty much kill you if you ever try and turn around and actually try and look at him).</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Horn leaves the silkhorn body at the end of in blue’s water under the tree when he says goodbye to nettle.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156061214278997/?comment_id=10156062257958997&reply_comment_id=10156062435643997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Nor can silk accept that humanity is dead and that green is Urth so he denies it, too, and who he is. But things are what they are. Silk is silk, green is Urth, the city of the inhumi Nessus, the tower horn died in severian’s Tower. All thematically related</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The only one seemingly out of the loop? Again, Horn himself, who abandoned his mother, and seemed to pretend throughout that his mother remained devoutly in love with him for sometime having thereafter sent a bounty of money to her and for, unlike his other siblings, proving a success in his endeavors. He, and he only, it seems, is allowed to not have to suffer his mother's anger for disobeying her wishes, even as this is one of the exact things he counsels others on in order to show they're adults... be a man/woman, turn away from your mother if you will, but be willing to bear her anger over your doing so (quote somewhere in "In Blue's"). He also seems to deny himself any lasting anger at her for her trying to shortchange him his due adult life. The whole psychomachia is displaced elsewhere, with Sinew and Scylla bearing the child's vindictiveness and fury towards the parent, and Horn himself, to his son Sinew, his own mother's likely reaction to his own removal of himself from her grasp. (And of course the dangerous mother who might ultimately deliver a cataclysmic Ragnorok-akin punishment for his crime of leaving her, is manifested in the dangerous possibilities in greater Scylla, in Mother!, and likely as well in Echidna.) Another thing not so adult: Horn, despite talking so much of being ready to accept the repercussions of Nettle witnessing him with Seawrack, with Evensong... of admitting that if he could have anything in the world available to him it would to be in a boat with Seawrack, is given the convenient dodge of coming back to her as Silk. And if Marc is right that Horn's spirit has absconded into Babbie by that point, seemingly, if this is right, having left shortly after leaving his palace in Gaon, "he,” with Silk then apparently showing remarkable signs of being able to replicate his personality within himself, can be present… can be felt by all as still present, without having to acknowledge this as factual in anyway. It’s a fierce trick of a kind, actually… remniscent, perhaps, of the sort Sinew liked to play on Nettle.</span></li>
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</span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;">Why is Horn so glad Marble got her eye back? Why is this almost better than bringing Silk back, even if able to acknowledge that he had in fact done so... the thing he is most proud of, the action he'd present to any judge of his worth as a human being. Because he'd displaced his own mother onto her, including her fearsome aspects -- note the manifestation in his presence of Rose’s devestating sniff-sniffs -- in hopes THIS would mean feeling free of her being wrathfully angry at his disobedience of her in insisting on being a free adult rather than what she expected of him, to be her perennial subservient child companion, and of his sometimes championing others -- with his cheerleading of Vadsig's intention to break free of her mother, for instance -- to do the same. This shows him as ultimately mother-loyal, not mother-disobedient... as someone in still being of the mind to bring huge gifts to her, ultimately willing to overlook or not see her flaws, her crimes, while conveniently letting the cost of being such payed by someone other than himself. Olivine gives of herself… something as huge and substantial as sight, to a mother just as obviously anxiously greedy as his own mother was (she left her parenting role/responsibility behind so to be parented, by Mucor, in Blue), and thereby his own escape from his mother gets "paid for," via another person. (Another thing for Wolfe scholars to explore is how often this dynamic, of one repaying through someone else what another gave or did to you, of not repaying directly, and of one to one being such an important measure, manifests throughout Wolfe's works... everyone's got an eye for it, knowing the exact measure in which someone else can be felt to have been repaid, with freedom thereby enabled for "you” after having matched it. How does such a system, given such textual support, match up with the concept of simply being generous for the love of giving? Are they, as they seem, working counter to one another, with one representing a regressed sense that all gifts contain contaminants/curses, and another that doesn't?)</span></li>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-57125015145866935672019-01-03T09:24:00.003-08:002019-01-03T09:24:44.450-08:00Anti-semitism, with Quetzal, the fate of Blood, and inhumi?<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 23px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; min-height: 26px;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARDULoJ39Ar952ywtrKRCOjc1cNL0YxV9HAdc3ae8kC242NjdKchJuJB5EgVGSSwtR5OK7wjPOxYxh_S&hc_ref=ARSTIlfaVw98AcEc-f4Zi5zULG4ZNYUivOUGhFK1-KSkijkEjSVdmVsMQiU1icdpo64&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group"><b>James Pepe</b></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/">December 28, 2018 at 12:25 PM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Uh oh guys...</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997&av=671137533">16</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997&av=671137533">16</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Like</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>CommentShare</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Comments</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Weiss Lancaster</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">🤘😳🤘</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034351278997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Jordon Flato</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Abaia for Calde!!!!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997_10156034354158997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997_10156034354158997&av=671137533">6</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034354158997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Francis Repass</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Catachrest for Caldé</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997_10156034361628997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997_10156034361628997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(42, 95, 222); color: #2a5fde;"><b>Like</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034354158997&reply_comment_id=10156034361628997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>David A Stockhoff</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Cthulhu comes. Praise him!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034389363997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Nathan Carson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> After all, torturers use iron maidens.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10156034350083997_10156034408008997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034408008997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Michael Tkach</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> OUR TIME IS NOW!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034418863997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> "Silk pretended to watch the parade as cavalry gave way to infantry, attractive young women who saluted the reviewing platform by holding their slug guns vertically at their left shoulders and marching with a stiff stride that reminded him of sibyls dancing at a sacrifice."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Sibyls dancing at a sacrifice...</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034428653997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> On a related note, did anyone worry that this passage by Quetzal would inspire anti-Semitic prejudice, or is it just too obvious in the text that Wolfe is antipathic to all prejudicial thinking, and in favouring intelligence, contestation, literacy, is, like the narrator of Peace, very pro-Jew? I ask because though Silk initially marks it so that the historical presumption that merchants, money-changers, are the most evil of people, is probably baseless, is gross populism, in the end he forgives all the rapists, murderers... criminals from the lower classes, lets them go free and renews their pride, but refuses the rich and proud "merchant," Blood, any forgiveness at all -- he's the root, and so not to given any quarter at all. That is, in effect he sustains the historical prejudice, which in our world, is anti-Semitic prejudice. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Anyway, the quote: “Quetzal paused, exhaling with a slight hiss. "Now, my children, a most painful matter. Word has come to me that devils in human shape are seeking our destruction. Falsely and evilly. they promise money they have not got and will not pay, for our blood. Do not believe their lies. Their lies offend the gods. Anyone who slays good men for money is worse than a devil, and anyone who slays for money he will never see is a fool. Worse than a fool, a dupe." Oosik reached for the ear, but Quetzal shook his head.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034466658997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Yorgos Nls</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I can not see it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Regarding Peace, I have not reread it recently but the narrator never struck me as pro-Jew. And how you mean pro-jew exactly?</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034466658997&reply_comment_id=10156034495068997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/yorgos.stasinoulias.3?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;">Yorgos Nls</span></a> Wolfe is playing with something quite dangerous here, though. The whole concept of snake-men infiltrating a civilization to perhaps take it over, each one, tremendously sly and manipulative... and that prey on children? Dangerous, unless it's very clear that the stereotype is being employed to defuse it somehow... which arguably may mostly be the case. And, yes, in the same book series he does this he also employs stigma against proud money men like Blood, and excuses the abuses of the ostensibly more humble lower classes. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Anyway, in "peace," two quotes: “They were supposed to be Jewish, but there was little about them to mark them as Jewish—no quick-witted, persuasive men; no curly-haired, clever, slant-eyed girls.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“I undress, conscious that Sherry Gold is in the next cubicle, probably stripped to her bra and panties. She is a small girl, a little plump (“You seem to be putting on weight, Miss Gold. Strip to your bra and panties, please, and I’ll come in and weigh you”) pretty, a Jewish face—Jewish faces are not supposed to be pretty, but pretty anyway.”</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I felt in "peace" an inclination to want to know and love Jews, to respect them, even if neighbours might be aghast at this. Personally I think most readers figure a Weer-Sherry Gold-type dynamic... an exotica, into our readings of "In Green's Jungles" and "Return to the Whorl."... Horn and the inhumi, particularly with Jahlee.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156034350083997/?comment_id=10156034466658997&reply_comment_id=10156034529263997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">5d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/yorgos.stasinoulias.3?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;">Yorgos Nls</span></a> By the way, apparently Borski argued "Peace" as anti-Semitic... the portrayal of the Gold as of profound evil. Joan Gordon disagreed, and wrote about it here: <a href="https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/we-read-things-differently/?fbclid=IwAR3fxzG99B3bc5L1o6cYAzEMA0f10wrHHQES1YJT7iZ2PXD3u9ClppPpcl0"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none;">https://lareviewofbooks.org/.../we-read-things-differently/</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I'm not so focused on Peace but I am surprised that the discussion of Quetzal and the inhumi as Jewish apparently hasn't occurred. I might be wrong, but I went through some of the old Urth archives and haven't found anything, yet since at least since the Middle Ages, Jews were character-assassinated by the church, by prominent "enlightened" thinkers, by the common populace, as snakes, as vampires, that impersonate human beings, infiltrate society, and take on empowered positions there, and specifically preyed upon the young. Always of course associated with money and false promises as well. Personally, I hope this gets discussed, for Quetzal to many might seem a powerful hero of the text -- I certainly remember that HE was the one who ended child sacrifice -- even as we are meant to understand that we only see one side of him -- we're told by Potto that Quetzal is as malicious as they come... and we're meant to read it as a fair take -- and his whole split-off thing, where he is a powerful terror to young children. This profile of him... as someone who in daily life does a lot of good FOR the young -- i.e., ending child sacrifice -- but in personal life, remorselessly preys on them, fits the profile of the pedophile, even as they twin to the two to absolve themselves of guilt, not for the reason Quetzal does -- simple sanity and goodness.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">In "Short Sun," it's also a simple fact that WE LIKE the inhumi that we meet, probably a lot. They seem the bridge to Horn's intellectual side, his perspicacious side, that no one else can meet.</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-46992147837237148992019-01-03T09:21:00.002-08:002019-01-03T09:21:46.790-08:00A scene of bathos, or sincerity, in Long Sun?<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARBYcGKt4WheaoUGYEheuhA3szh6qhlRlq-NjmXaRaB7DcJCioYhE5rRX3hm6_UFUjwW5ShSxOOu1P_Y&hc_ref=ARSR3SKIH6yPXSb4ZYQ_W1lMeUAo0HI4nTeG5Y4sr3nrhc62TKUGI2oFnfsOSlkLXqA&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156036482083997/">December 29, 2018 at 3:17 PM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Epic?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Silk, abruptly leaving an impossibly important engagement, a highly important diplomatic meeting, as host, runs out into the city to meet his love, who'll prove to have been just as much.... almost just as much of the same mind to have met up with him, as soon as his whereabouts were known. And this happy engagement, between a man who risked imperilling a just-forged alliance between cities to meet his love, and a woman concerned to keep her tits in place (which otherwise would be dragging on the ground) and a speaking animal in all ways mentally comparable to a human child on an altar of sacrifice, follows:</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“She wiped her eyes. "Now I'm coming back. Catch me." She rolled over the back of the front seat so that Silk had to, and lying in his arms kissed him again. With no need of speech, her kiss said, Beat me, shame and starve me. Do as you want with me, but don't leave me. I'll never do those things, he thought, and tried to make his own kiss tell her so.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“Hyacinth grinned like a twelve-year-old.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“She laid her hand on his. "You stay in here or we'll get all naked and sweaty, and we ought to do that someplace nicer. Where's the driver?”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">[...]</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“No, you don't. I did. I knew exactly where you were. At the Juzgado or the calde's Palace. Everybody I asked wanted to talk about you, and everybody said one place or the other. But I looked, well, like every other slut in the Orilla, only worse, and I stank [...]</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"And clean clothes, clean underwear and a bunch of other things. You know what I'd look like without all this stuff?"</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"Yes," Silk declared. "Like Kypris herself."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"Thanks. Like a boy, only with tits down to my waist. You saw me naked."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Silk felt his face flush. "They weren't. Not nearly."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"That's the trouble with big ones," Hyacinth explained to Xiphias.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"The bigger they are the lower they go, unless you've got something to hold them up. Will that make it hard for me to sword-fight.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">”“Will if they bounce, lass! But there's ways! ”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">[brief pause, as driver rejoins them with escaped catachrest]</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“He led us quite a chase, Hy," Hossaan said, "but we got him in the alley trying to wriggle through a hole."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"You're bleeding!"</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"He put up a fight. If somebody else will hold him, I'll get out the aid kit."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"Add, add word!" the little orange-and-white catachrest reiterated.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"Pack! Itty laddie, peas dun lit am kilt may!" [Translation: "Little lady, please don't let 'em kill me!"]</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"She won't, for an hour or two at least," Silk told him. "Willet, I want you to take us out to Blood's and help us collect Hyacinth's belongings." For a moment, Silk paused to gaze upon Hyacinth.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"Then to the Prolocutor's Palace.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">(Excerpt from Epiphany of the Long Sun)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Note: I have no interest in copying in bits the entire book, but to partake in conversation with my last post, as I read through the Long Sun and Short Sun again. Humour and bathos of enlightenment, is meant for all.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Note, I actually like Hy here; frank and honest (and so maybe not herself so juvenile here). It's more Silk that is embarrassing... "like Kypris herself."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156036482083997/?comment_id=10156036491508997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">4d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>António Pedro Marques</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It's not embarrassing, it's how he felt.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156036482083997/?comment_id=10156036491508997&reply_comment_id=10156036518693997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">4d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> António Pedro Marques Maybe more "embarrassing" than truly embarrassing... because you're right. Still, there is here in Hyacinth's mood of frank honesty... essential groundedness, some available play on Silk's own ability to be more forthright with himself, which he could potentially seize and make use of. The question has always been how on earth have you made a goddess of me?... what is unfair, to me, Hyacinth, that you persist in doing so... so you can never be sure he's truly in love with what he sees, or only what he is CHOOSING to see ( in my judgment, abandoned, awkward Hyacinth is to him his own "boy" self, whom he intends to shower with attention in a way his highly depressed mother could not avail him, for being so absorbed in her own pains and sorrows [litany of the long sun, 21]). Psychologically, Silk behaves as if he is projecting someone onto her, not mature loving her in sickness and in health, as the saying goes. I agree this is disputable, but that's how it mostly plays with me.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156036482083997/?comment_id=10156036491508997&reply_comment_id=10156036527928997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">4d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Also, for me, there's some sense of duplicity at work here. Silk gets love... feels like he's being loved, for being so pitiful in feeling so much love for someone others would find base, would dismiss as unworthy of true love and marriage. (A comparable instance of this occurs in Wolfe's the Knight, when Able writes of how he arrives at the surface of the volcano, burned, tired... wrecked, and ostensibly rejoiced in his seeing stars more beautiful than anyone has ever seen them. He is not actually pleased only at this great site, but owing to his being subconsciously aware that being so baldly pitiful means that a pitying overlooker -- a habitually otherwise absent parental god -- would surely be loving him now. [Call me Dr. Crane... I'll accept.]) It relates to the text's portrayal of how gods love you most, not only when you sacrifice 100 children to them, but to your being pitiful. Then, love is your due. There is a lot of self-attendance, wound-licking, self-concern, in Silk's ostensibly generous display of love for another here. Love, true respect, true kindness... would come in his realizing his use of another person here, and letting her be free to meet someone who loves her AND always fully sees her. Silk does not.</span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-8211956078378608872019-01-03T09:17:00.001-08:002019-01-03T09:17:27.862-08:00The suicide scene in Exodus of the Long Sun<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/">December 31, 2018 at 10:53 AM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I have a conjecture about that suicide scene in Exodus of the Long Sun.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Wolfe has argued that Severian's whole character was profoundly influenced by the fact that he grew up without a mother. It influenced how he reacted to/perceived any woman taller than himself, especially, and also anyone whose breasts were of a size that they seemed to offer much needed maternal sustenance/oral needs (why the undue willingness to join the monstrous undine? -- this is why). It also made him somewhat schizoid, isolated, afraid to attach himself to other people... it affected his relations with everyone. Given, then, the huge importance Wolfe invests in the mother-child relationship on later development, with special attention put on what happens to the child when it lacks, we should be thinking on how Wolfe inscribed this awareness into the New Sun's sequel, Long Sun, where a lack in mothering is even more forthrightly (in New Sun we kind of have to intuit that our concern should be more on how Severian is determined by the lack of a present mother than on who exactly she might have been; from the start in Long Sun we are pretty much told that such things as a sense of isolation, loneliness, and profound rage, can owe to troubles in the mother-child "bond") put forward as a potentially central determining factor of one's later self.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The obvious character affected by such a lack is Blood, for the negative repercussions of it -- i.e., revenge through obliteration of her home -- are as much the motive for Silk's call to action (Silk would have set off to save the manteion regardless of whether he'd had a vision or not, for, as Blood says, he looks the type... he's not just going to sit there passively) as is the Outsider's prompting. Terribly and tragically, his mother found it impossible to love him, wholesale rejected him, because he reminded her always of her own sin in conceiving him. But even this is being too kind: it's difficult to find any instance in the text where her instinct isn't to mal-form, disturb, disorient, de-humanize (... that slut!) others, for purposes of sadistic pleasure... and her sniff is characterized as having an azoth-level destructive ability on one's self-possession/self-confidence (Silk will, after her death -- always note how in Wolfe it is after people that grated on you have died, that they are suddenly dealt with "more squarely" -- admonish himself on always being intent on avoiding her, but when revived as Marble/Rose we note that he always makes sure that when someone's about to be subjected to one of her sniffs/brutal dismissals, he's at the time allied to her in some way [as happens when Rose turns on and almost chills out Nettle at the end of Exodus, for instance] ... he perpetuates the avoidance in another guise; actually learned nothing). But though the negative repercussions of it aren't as much on display, as with Severian Silk's own background of profound absence in maternal attention is delineated in the text, with as well some sense of how this had begun to determine what would later become his adult character "mold." We are told: “She had never been a happy woman in any case, her large dark eyes so often bright with tears from sources more mysterious than the fisc, her tiny body shaken with sobs that he could do nothing to alleviate." She was depressed and self-absorbed most of the time, and Silk, rather than focussing on his own needs, became bent on fixing/helping her. His mission, to save the maternal "manteion," and thereby receive her glorious smile! (This he has seen, and recalls perennially... and later says is more important to him that any stack of Hyacinths that could possibly be assembled.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">When Silk is contemplating suicide on the airship... or, rather, behaving in a fashion which others would duly read as his being involved in that, I think it is possible that Wolfe had intended us to read him as in a sense mimicking his own mother here, so to suck up love from others; be the receiver/afflicter rather than the dispenser/afflicted for a change. (How Silk functions in the later half of Exodus, and especially on the airship, is strange enough to be worthy of its own essay: he'd just been this man of action but is becoming -- Dr. Talus-akin? -- a man of dodges and slights as the women-men of Trivigaunti stage themselves as phallus... pubic hair gathered into phallic might!, then this depressed maternal figure who sits still while's other she's prompted approach her lair... and ultimately a bit like that gardener who was drafted to marry the former caldé's love interest, Chenille's mom: someone subjected to betrayals (Hyacinth with man-like Saba) and due to be dominated by his wife (Hyacinth refusing to go into the yucky tunnels, with Silk hapless to do anything about it.) Like his mother was to him, he has made himself indispensable to all figures... no one is being shown as being able to bring peace, as truly fruitful, as truly good -- not just in intent but in results -- without him, and many are aware of it (Mint at one point notes that she has found herself in a situation she could never imagine developing: one where she actually thought Silk in error about something of import). And at just that point, he ducks out, and behaves in just the way his mother seemed to him, in focussing on things that bring him to despair but that are mysterious to everyone else. He thereby prompts anyone who can be prompted to play the role of him as child Silk to attempt to awaken him/Her out of his/Her despair. He thereby gains someone who is so respondent to him he can't ever leave him... an affliction mothers in the Whorl world sometimes also hope to apply to their children when they name them -- re: the naming of a child as "Auk" -- and who'll demonstrate the totality of their need by readily making themselves subject to the grossest, more cruel of whims: Silk repeatedly encourages Horn to join him in on the edge, even as Horn readily senses he's essentially being prompted, URGED, to put his hand in a fire (I mention this specific reference because this is one of the lessons Silk applies to Horn: hand-in-the-fire is, he is being made to consider, a good teaching lesson; a good in the world, not an avenue to disturbance/trauma), to put himself in a position where he could incur great harm, for another's pleasure.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Exodus has a scene where everyone has a chance to meet their mothers and fathers again. And for each one it appears to be a gainful experience; none of them find themselves subjected to Maytera Rose-level dismissal of their worth; none of them get what Blood gets when he agrees to make a sacrifice to appease Musk's guilt over buying the manteion -- total balking, total refusal; all of them find that if they had any sense their parents wanted them for selfish purposes, to promote their own glory, they were mistaken for their thoughts were only always on their happiness ("Remora, all your concerns that you were worthless unless you achieved high position were baseless; you evidently misconceived my intentions a million and one times!; I only ever wanted you to be happy!"). It is a whorl where people are engineered to do what they do, it would seem to me, to obtain exactly this fate -- parental approval -- and, owing it would seem to deprivations in the maternal-child bond, to possess "built-in instructions," which are, like evil in people ostensibly is, ineradicable, to enslaven themselves to the first person who ever duly awakens out of their self-absorption to smile at them, actually notice them... Auk's own fate, vis-a-vis Tartaros; Blood's situation vis-a-vis Musk... "after so many years of refusal, he actually grabbed my hand!"; Silks's vis-a-vis the Outsider. If it is overt, every character who is meant to carry any negative mothering either finds herself in some way redeemed (the hugely redeemed Scleroderm... who incidentally reminds me of Lobelia from LOTR, who also goes from overwhelming and obese encroacher/defiler to selfless provider/warrior of the home defence), excused/refashioned (Rose), or creatively fashioned into an agent of the good (Echidna). She is never allowed to sit only as maligned, and justly. This grace, as we see with Blood, does not apply to "the child," however. If you're a father who pimps out your child (Hyacinth), you remain always the child's father... sorry, no chance Hyacinth if you wanted to severe yourself from him; instruct yourself: he's got you for life. If you are parents so awful you seek constant proof of love without feeling any necessary compulsion to show anything for it -- the gods of the whorl -- you remain, still, as from no less an authority than the thorough disbeliever Quetzal, those one must still look to, hope for better from.</span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/charles.gillingham.16"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> There is no profit in me reading all that. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Silk is a clone made for Typhoon to take over. Silk' s courage through the series is merely the expression of his suicidal drive. He can jump into the middle of battle or up an airship because he's been programmed to not care if he lives or dies.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156040746503997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>David A Stockhoff</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> What does that have to do with the conjecture at hand?</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156040746503997&reply_comment_id=10156041032793997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/charles.gillingham.16"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">David A Stockhoff</span></a> I thought was the topic. I didn't read the post.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156040746503997&reply_comment_id=10156041034093997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>David A Stockhoff</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/charles.gillingham.16?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Charles Gillingham</span></a> Oh. I suppose it's related, but I see no contradiction. Both could be intended/true.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156040746503997&reply_comment_id=10156041035058997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Quetzal is arguing, in part, for something that I do like, that I do like in how Silk engages with people, when he isn't covertly encouraging the maintenance of a kind of weakness in them. It is for not wholesale dismissing people, but in working at seeing what is remarkable in them... so that, presumably, in their seeing your ability to richly discern them but also appreciate them, and, as well, your clear not making a fetish attachment with their flaws, they'll work at becoming the person you see that is remarkable, but even better, more developed... they deserve it, and faith in you, your foresight, gives them faith in their ability to achieve it. We see this for example with Hyacinth, whom, I know, I've argued Silk does project onto and therefore at times commits the crime of NOT SEEING, who responds positively to Silk taking a genuine liking in imperfect, babyish, manipulative and cruel her... penetrating that to see virtues and strengths SHE DOES possess, to try and become a better person... which is what I read as happening in that scene when she instructs the monitor not to reflect her as a perfect beauty but ostensibly as a more refined, calibrated, mature one... the image in the ring (I acknowledge that I might have done a misread of this scene, but that was my sense). We see it also in Chenille as she tries to disown herself of her addiction to rust, not just because the strength of Kypris infiltrated her, but because she sought to work past the strong allure of the drug high, deny herself it, so to cultivate the more giving relationship she would have with the person she loves and who sees worth in her.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I like when Silk and the text build on what belief in another person can do, what, I suppose, LOVE can do, but am very cagey about the text's very mixed... its elision, its effacement, of what abuse and trauma can do: that is, its sometimes contribution to the belief that shows of what might appear to be the opposite of love, of hate, may not need to be faced head on. Rose is sort of saved in the text, our understanding of her, by Silk's encouragement that we fundamentally see her as someone who is on route to becoming a very decent grandmother, and who could really have been one to Silk. But before we are directed to understand her as this, she was credited in the text as someone who very likely through her beating the boys in her class, would be contributing to their own beating of their wives and children as they emerge as head-of-households in the next few years. I'm not sure all the children and wives who were going to be subject to that would be all that appreciate of the text's motioning of her into status of decency... for it meaning the forgetfulness, the oblivion, of them, of what happened to them. Horn is beckoned further out onto an airship where he will not only very nearly lose his life, but where he'll have to undergo the psychological torture of having to keep faith with himself even as it means going against everything he's ever believed in (namely, Silk, the greatest man in the whole universe) and potentially earning their disapproval/disfavor... that is, work his way through someone he's always been given reason to trust and whom is asking to be trusted once again now, giving all the signs that at that unique moment of time he is -- and he actually at that moment, really, truly is -- about as dangerous to any nearby agreeable child as any vampire let loose into the whorl could possibly be. The text nicely dresses this incident up afterwards, though, as just Horn being brave... as a moment of empowerment for him (Horn the hero!), even as in capitulating to the "abuser's" desires he did near prove the sacrifice Silk may only have been pretending to have been (sacrifice to what?, you ask... to the near fruition of the Outsider's goals; the sacrifice we always entail when we want interrupted good boding for the success of our new project so to appease the defeated Echindas of the world -- could this be, also, why he was up there?). </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>We DO get a scene where brutal dismissal sends a Talus off into aggrieved madness -- we do SEE at times incidents where someone's betrayal/disregard doesn't turn someone onto hoping for better things... as Silk's moral lesson of the utility of putting the hand into fire was supposed to teach Horn, but rips them apart, stops any possible progress, cold; we also are always aware of Mucor and what brutal treatment did to her... though she does have a nose for the good, a strong and reliable one, really -- despite of how much death she incurs for those she only understands as objects of play -- and one would have to wonder where exactly that came from for it's only something one would expect from one out of a nurturing background; but when we see it happen individually our stance on it is sometimes ambiguous -- isn't the Talus raging over nothing?... and how human is this over-heated, perennially rageful thing, anyway?; isn't Blood, who turns on his mother's repeatedly presuming over him by calling him "Bloody" after forcing him to incur her never being a mother to him, her previous near total complete dismissal and abandonment of him, by trying to kill her, only kind of helping us out... to show us those who know no crime committed by a mother ever deserves such criminal retribution; that we'd never find ourselves on THAT side? Don't these "people" show the effects of trauma, the true effects, by showing us exactly what we require disowning about ourselves? Don't scream, don't rage... because that forces us to deal squarely with those we'd prefer to keep in a slightly different level of esteem? Regarding Horn, we are never allowed to see the psychological effects this likely would of had on him, for it meaning a betrayal of his own self, his own knowledge, in his allowing himself to be suckered in to a Silk he highly suspected had ill-designs on him then, and for it meaning his effort to save someone ending by his being managed into a position where he was ready to kill his own self. Horn is, unlike many of the characters in the text, built out of a family that knew both a present mother and a reasonably present father... even as Horn half-despises him, so could probably have ridden this out. But there is a betrayal upon us for not being allowed to know that Horn was going to have to ride out something that could easily have done someone else permanently in, f*cked them up real bad (and why not actually in fact to Horn too, if true that in the next series he actually does sacrifice himself so Silk may live... not sure if this happens, but I seem to remember it as something that happens). Quetzal terrorizes children... we witness Colonel Oosik's son's severe impairment, his feeling diminished and dwarfed, at having been sucked at by this old-man vampire, but strangely the text never works against, really complicates, our estimation of him as a source of powerful good and cheer-inspiring sanity and rescue (the wonder worker, the miracle, "we" need, given all that besets "us") until the nature of him as a bodily horror is exposed to the public -- then, we can agree to feel repulsion; a feeling that gets accentuated, very likely, as we get to know Green better. The text highlights something... almost as a demonstration of one's power to obviate it entirely, one's willingness to banish it from one's mind no matter the painful dissonance incurred for doing so, for knowing how strong our need to believe in those who may not be worthy of love, but whom we seek approval and love so powerfully. The alternative would have been to have us spend much more time with all the Teasels out there... all the subjected, and to flesh out more what it did to them to be visited upon by horrors that few ever seemed all that concerned about. When get some in the text... Nettle's almost shutting herself down after Rose goes at her, is another. But probably not enough. I'll explore this further, as this is but first sense of things after just re-reading the text.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156040790923997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The counter-argument, that Horn more than anything exposes the damage predators do in a way we all can't but not fail to read, no matter the text's rounding up of all human relations as about learning to forgive and love one another (Exodus, 369), and with it terminating with a "mother waiting for him/us" after beginning with a deliberate, intentional gross violation of her, is perhaps made evident through a supply of deadly, blatantly accusatory delineations of Rose we encounter through the text. Though it is true that presentations of Rose as her as a horror, as really as the total witch Oreb espies her as, begin to subside in the text as she becomes Marble/Rose... and she manifests more as a glove in which to smack evil with, it comes back at the end -- in part through sniffs, at people we like -- and may over-all be show that Horn is negotiating his way to a profound disagreement with Silk's presumption that evil is more a necessity for growth than a blight that forestalls it. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85098); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: #eff0f2;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I'll list them shortly.</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156040923273997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); background-color: white;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015259594867"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Sunyi Dn</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> There is a lot going on in this post, but I have pretty fundamental objections to bad mothering or absent mothering being the source of such severe character flaws. Wolfe may have believed it, but that is hugely old fashioned nonetheless. And I wpuld argue with him on it, if so. I especially reject the notion that breastfeeding makes any sort of difference to a person's ethical outcomes or predisposition for breast fetishisation.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042502493997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> People certainly should be writing on and thinking about the effects of mothering in Wolfe's works. To say Wolfe is concerned about the negative effects... the resolutely negative effects of mothering could certainly raise a notable counter -- that he's about negative fathering in the text as well. For instance, with Hyacinth, there's nary a word about her mother in the text... until she learns she's in fact deceased, but a good deal about her father pimping her out as a young girl to be raped by an older man. But also and more to the point, the criticism against mothers is raised but almost always, as I mentioned, textually elided, worked against, somehow (often we come to be more involved in how life's pains affected her, and forget about the child somehow)... something that is not as much the case with fathers -- witness, again, Blood and Mucor. Still, for the most part it's mothering that's the focus in Long Sun, with Auk's attachment to Mint for knowing no mothering at all, Silk's own insistence that his mom was the most important person in the world to him... until the Outsider, Blood's whole instigation of the plot by trying to revenge himself on his mother for abandoning him for "his crime" of offending her by reminding her of her own sin, Echinda, the wife of Pas and the mother of the nine, being so much the representative of evil that Silk knows to make use of her to show how "evil" serves the Outsider's plans, overwhelming Orchid and her demure, non-complaining and agreeable servant child, Marble/Rose adopting Mucor, Maytera/mother Mint and Spider, how Silk can't have sex without thinking Echinda is going to kill him for it, how Rose wants Echinda to finally have her revenge and strike her dead for disobeying her by having a child and attempting life with a man. Overt blame against your mother is resoundly rejected in the book, as it is this that primarily dooms Blood (as well as his pride in his money making, with Remora showing the "proper" example, the "proper path," in growing big in heart just as soon as he loses his luxurious robes and adopts the plainest of manteoins), as Silk takes advantage of the fact of him to momentarily pretend to be innocent for so long being negatively affected by Rose as well. (there's a lot of covert revenge against mothers permitted in the text though... note all the fat, waddling mother-types... was Wolfe's own mother obese? And another covert revenge: Marble reacting to becoming aware of Rose's death not by any instant of remorse but in immediately pilfering her for parts.)</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>But then again, not saying anything about it also seems to make one a participant in evil -- as for instance not saying that Maytera Rose/Marble attaching herself to Mucor could hardly be assuredly an instance of "good grandmothering," given how Rose interacted with everyone in the manteoin as simply a vile, dehumanizing witch, meant of course a failure to rescue her from the capitulated, doomed life that awaited her: as a denied and traumatized child, being in fact not provisioned but becoming the provisioning mother to incapacitated Marble/Rose (we learn this in On Blue's Waters, which I'm now reading). (There are a number of these cast-off lives in Wolfe's works, of young women and men that are pretty much enslaved into serving their mothers, that the free protagonist doesn't seem much inclined to want to interfere with, as if their lives must be sacrificed so his own can be kept free, absent of "clinging"... read for example the fates of Merryn and Ouoen in New Sun. And in Short Sun, it's the mother goddess's option that Seawrack ever "escapes" from her; otherwise, hers, too, would have been an owned life.) </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>(And further about Mucor and Marble/Rose in Short Sun, we note... or should be in mind to note, that Silk/Horn's concern is on getting Marble/Rose a new eye, not in freeing up Mucor to have her own life... Mucor is bound to her "mom" like the daughter is fated in "Glass Menagerie," while the protagonist himself knows no bounds, and even exults in the escape, while not acknowledging the seeming fact that the reason "you" don't escape while "he" does, owes not only to "your" lack of courage but to the fact that his own freedom seems to require that SOMEONE be made to suffer this fate, unrescued...)</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Yet, still, it is very clear in the text just how much we are spared with Maytera Roses's dying early... the whole rest of the text would otherwise have been watching great Silk demonstrating why it was that her, singularly, was the one person in the text he did everything he could to avoid. And even as is, one does imagine what it would have been to have been raised by someone like that, and you could never imagine that person as anything other than totally doomed. To even present it like this, which the text DOES DO, is what the father Outsider presents the whorl... otherwise they would be so only attached ONLY to their mothers, so ever-needful of their love, to ever risk manifesting this image in print. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Wolfe's own thoughts about his mother would be interesting to explore. I know he's written that you shouldn't write fearing her reaction... but not because you can't let that interfere with your efforts towards "truth," but because she'll love you and appreciate your accomplishments no matter what (she will? didn't prove so for Plath.). But then again, I remember reading somewhere that he admitted he had to leave her behind at some point, in order to have his own life... anyone know where that he admitted that bit?</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042502493997&reply_comment_id=10156042683058997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Mother looms large in Silk’s mind in this scene because he is confronted with the struggle between his good “adopted” mother and the biological mother he has become dimly aware of in the form of kypris, who seeks to manipulate him through hyacinth and in other ways. He thinks about Walking with mother when he is with hyacinth either late in the third volume or in the fourth, and the literal suggestion of that is telling.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042502493997&reply_comment_id=10156042918458997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think the mother/absent mother imagery is certainly present in the text but I like to put it to almost purely plot purposes - I don’t know if I would be misconstruing the starting position as Freudian but certainly psychoanalytic.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042502493997&reply_comment_id=10156042991293997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> If it's just plot purposes as you say, then Wolfe decided in Long Sun to elide everything he thought of concerning the relevance of the lacking mother-son attachment bond that he held as so relevant in New Sun. It might be that in this text we ourselves have to play the Freud/Sherlock Holmes to fully sleuth out why it is that Blood is made the de facto primary EVIL (well... Urus as well) in the whorl (Silk says Blood does have good points, and would in fact like to know him more, but ends up specifying him as the primary source of the destruction of people in the whorl, and won't go easy on him, intends to hardball him, even after releasing every thief, murderer and the rapist from the Alambrera), after he is made to embody a sentiment -- specifically, revengefulness -- other than forgiveness to a mother put forward in the text as so unendurable, mean, spiteful and witchy, Silk has spent his years at the manteoin avoiding her at every opportunity, and who openly admitted she rejected her child for his reminding her of her own "sins." But even this I'm not sure about. Perhaps Wolfe had the sophistication to know that the hardest thing for human beings to do is to really look squarely at their mothers, for if they register your complaints, your anger, it isolates you from any chance in the future to obtain the salve of their smile/approval you absolutely -- owing to the previous short supply of it -- need (what a single smile does to someone who really knew very little of it in their childhoods, is conveyed best in the text when Auk meets Tartaros for the first time). Evidence that Wolfe is to some extent aware of this may be provisioned in how Severian so much hates Jolenta much of the time that he has feelings of wanting to destroy her (Jolenta being delineated by Wolfe as someone Severian is built to project his mother onto), in Peace's dealing with the abandoning mother/parents AS actually behaving guiltily towards their son, and the treatment of the surrogate mother, his aunt, to him, which is so much of gross over-familiarity (she beckons him to bring her things as she bathes exposed in the tub, as if he was of so little worth she didn't have to factor him in into how she behaved) he's on the road to becoming a Bloody (who implies that he went homosexual for over-familiarity with women, as I recall) in certain short stories.... one of the Dr. Death ones, War Beneath the Trree. It may be we're supposed to infer it when certain characters just quit -- like Able near the end of Wizard Knight does -- when they just can't anymore oblige everyone else's requirement that they serves as agreeable and positive, their sanity-restorers... our own movers-of-the-plotters, savers-of-the-worlders. F*ck you, they seem to be saying... and with this bear signs of becoming Blood. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Concerning Blood, Rose did find a foster-mother for him... it's in the text that she did (she herself visited him once every three months... so herself thereafter just a source of very infequent contact). As far as I remember we don't know much about who she was or what her treatment of "Bloody" was like, and I think the result of the text's failure to delineate this for us is that we do read the end-result Blood, the destroyer-of-many-lives Blood, as the product simply of his mother's rejection, abandonment of him; we aren't meant to factor it in. </span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I don't know if Wolfe wanted us to explore early childhood matters for it, but we also note that Silk's being oriented as a child as someone who is ever-trying to awaken his mother out of her sorrows, is matched by his later tendency to put himself in her position, to be the self-isolated mother, while letting others serve as the children intent to "awaken" her/him. This is, as I've argued, what appears to me to be happening when Silk isolates himself in the airship, and what may be at work in Green Jungles/Exodus as he isolates himself as surely-not-Silk: so much of others' effort goes into trying to find some tender way to wake him up, with Remora at last finding a solution. He makes himself as essential to others as a mother is to her child, then he isolates himself, and thereby can depend on others finding themselves being obsessed in the effort of burrowing away at "your" troubles to maybe possibly touch something that will make you fully alive to them again. Able does the same thing in the Knight series as well, as I recall... the plot has to stop as we find some way again "to reach" Able; "we" play the nursemaid. (A good sense of what this is like... always trying to reach someone, is to be found in the recent movie "the favourite," as competing favourites try so hard to please the self-isolated, depressed Queen Anne.)</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>What Wolfe may have needed to have done is shown us some of what it was like for Blood to have grown up the way he did. We don't get a lot of the dirty stuff... we don't develop a sophisticated appreciation of what life would be like whoring, for instance (in fact one of things "we learn" is that it often leads to marriage -- an ostensible source of utility!), we don't spend a long time in Mucor's position as abandoned child lost in darkness and dirt -- we don't endure the environments that we know are directly linked to the development of a wrecked person (many contemporaries, for example, would explore whoring more so we saw it as abused children repeating the abuse in some desperate attempt to master earlier trauma... Rachel Kushner in her latest, "Mars Room," goes there a bit more). We can to some extent imagine ourselves into them, but we can avoid doing so if we wish... and even, as we see with whoring, rationalize our way into thinking that... it might even have had its good points, even as it means being greased with too many men's sperm in a single evening: slippery sheets!</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Perhaps more in the text what we do get are experiences we have that aren't DIRECTLY linked to later character formation, but which do show the kind of experiences that would in fact lead to the destruction of psyches, and to really get at what made for a Blood or an Urus or a Hyacinth we need to take these experiences, multiply them by a factor of a hundred to represent years of incurrences, and then land them onto our "appreciation" of them. These experiences include our own long claustrophic time in the tunnels, our experience of Mint's psychological torture at the hands of Potto (mind you, she doesn't have to experience this alone... Remora offers himself, genuinely, as her sympathic, heroic rescuer, in encouraging that the torture be instead applied to him), and as well, I think, Silk's own manipulation of Horn on top of the airship, which is a taste of what would make for a schizophrenic it if occurred repeatedly in one's life, with their being no way for Horn to behave in anyway "rightly" without it backfiring in some way (if he refuses Silk, he's a bad person who fundamentally doesn't trust someone he seems to only be able to see as the greatest man alive; if he trusts him, he has exposed to severe risk of death, and so has behaved in way Silk might, if he was inclined, be able to reprimand him over -- you should have known enough not to have trusted me in that instance... I taught you well enough to know that!).</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042502493997&reply_comment_id=10156044741318997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think there are certainly lots of terrible mothers in Wolfe as in war under the tree, but I don’t think the idealized mother figure is, in general, in for it in Wolfe’s books. Able’s Metaphysical situation is different and his mother’s ignorance of him completely not her fault. I don’t know that Jolenta despite her artificial proportions can be seen at all as motherly when we have Dorcas in the party.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Sunyi Dn Another reason why a new generation of scholars' exploration of Wolfe is so necessary, is that they will be in mind to stop at and more profoundly think about relationships that are key in his novels, that others put little thought into... for it being ostensibly ordinary. For example Michael Andre-Druissi argued that Horn's terrifying relationship with his son Sinew, is just the norm for fathers and their teenage sons; nothing to think about. This could pass as acceptable analysis a number of decades ago, but now this past "normal" is being more understood as actually one-hundred-percent optional, and is only present in families which function perversely, where love is somewhat or largely absent. Younger scholars would correct Andre-Druissi on his assumptions immediately, in a way previous generations may not have felt the need to, and would in their explorations show the Horn-Sinew "relationship" as something as much worth improving on as animal sacrifice was to the sacrifice of children, as the Outsider was to the mostly dark gods of the Whorl.</span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Personally, understanding it myself as optional, as something tragic in that there was so much better available to them if only they'd had kind guides around to help them, works to double-back on some of the childrearing advice that gets presented in Long Sun, especially in the discussion between the Talus-maker and Silk, and in all discussions of how teachers should concern themselves with their students generally. In operation, there is a lot (a lot!) that is progressive in how Silk involves himself with other people, with young minds, with children, as there is in how Crane involves himself with Silk, and Quetzal, too, with Silk, but when presented overtly... how one must interact with children, it semblances mostly old-school pedagogy. And the phenomena of the really horrible relationship between Horn and Sinew, seems, to me, to owe at that to have been allowed to go unquestioned. (The only thing good about their relationship is that Sinew is freed up and doesn't cling... he escapes the non-entity of Hide/Hoof.)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/85892045-60de-43b3-85dc-f604611f6ed2" /></span></li>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Talking of correcting scholars, well then we better get the actual relationships right. Smacks of arrogance I think to assume that which is new is superior to that which is old, eh? The mother imagery is there but silk’s adopted mother is a positive influence though she has died. His real mother tries to protect him too but she had other motives. The mindwiped version of her in Mamelta (we’ll be lovers! Is the first thing she says to him when she awakes, which only comes true through kypris - when silk sees the origin of humanity in the stars he looks up mamelta’s loins - he dreams of sleeping with her in the tube. That’s where he came from originally, though she has been altered and her perceptions destroyed by the surgeries of Typhon before being placed behind the seal of pas)</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042925108997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> The only mother I remember of Silk's is the one who was entombed in her own sorrows, something you don't seem to have factored into your analysis of her relationship with Silk, how that would have effected him, what that conveyed to him about what his ultimate purpose in life should be -- tend to my wounds! Even as we are repeatedly (insistently!) told she loved him and tried to protect him, it doesn't take much of a sleuth to gather than his recollections are tainted by terrible need, terrible "requirement"... how was he ever going to awaken her out of her sorrows and perhaps attend to him a bit if he maligned her in any way? Not about to take a chance at that! If Mamelta was the original, if he didn't know her, this becomes only, "neat." It disappeared from my mind... and this appears justified. What is the relevance? </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Yes, if "the new" are to look at a relationship between a father and a son which is so averse that it has the father fearing his son will kill him, and disagree with the previous generations' assumption of this as just the human norm, the the "new" is just better. Quetzal telling people that sacrificing animals is better than the old way of sacrificing children, is presumptuous... but this makes presumption seem something praiseworthy, no? Saying people "smack of arrogance"... is, to some of us, itself a bit old school. What is relevant, only, is whether they are better, more correct, or they aren't, not whether they presume too much or not. Everything new and worthy ends up seeming arrogant presumption to a generation that couldn't itself bring themselves to imagine it, for it seeming a trespass, too much from what the old gods permitted. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>You and I have quite different takes on Rose as well. You, if I remember right, focused on Silk as having done something in error in not giving his juicy tomato to Rose, not sharing it. Is this correct? A lot of us read this and thought it more the beginning of Silk getting his head on straight... someone's gotta start barking back at the menace of Rose, who in her reign is cowing, stalling, destroying many lives. Silk started at it, but Death quickly stepped in to finish the deed.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042965693997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Yes completely different takes on Rose. That is the selfishness patera silk must overcome so that words become deeds. He fights the seven deadly sins, too, and his triumph over them is a move to true goodness. Rose does not need to be stood up to but loved.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042971208997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> And no one surpasses me in arrogance.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042971553997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Nor is anyone more correct bwahahahahhaa</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042972563997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_3.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/fd490a0d-fc41-46b0-8900-aa7f7ccb6d48" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> I agree that Rose deserves love. But the love she needs is from someone who isn't so wary of her they'll be afraid to confront her when required, and isn't mostly still hoping to get her off of their backs somehow. Ultimately, it is a good sign of him to be talking back to her, even as, of course, the path to get to is to insist thereafter on a relationship that is fair and equal, even as that would be impossible for him himself to install for his beginning with a corrupted relationship where she knows she fears him.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042976273997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I think she also demands understanding in that her harshness is in her mind for their own good, so they will not fall and fail as she did. In short sun I think there is a scene where silk realizes that both the mayteras in marble loved him</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042978708997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The result of not in the past insisting on a relationship which doesn't have him escaping her all the time, is a book where his disciple Horn manifests a kind of glory in her finally biting the dust, with Marble there to immediately thieve parts from. It cultivates gross unkindnesses and revenge.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042979308997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Rose lives on in that incorporation in a way - her body given to good use - we do view these things quite differently. I would like to think my take is fairly orthodox in its Christian POV. Giving of the body for others, abnegation of the needs of the flesh, repentance, temptation, weakness of the flesh, etc</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042981853997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> Wolfe has argued that all evil believes itself good, so even if she believes what she does us is good and necessary, it means nothing, really; it gives it no real credit. When we are made to understand how what Hyacinth does with Saba is actually her performing for the good, for the intention is not masked -- it is good of her to try and help Silk -- it is a very different thing that how Rose might understand/justify her treatment of others, which is exposed pretty bluntly in the text as just withering sadism; something that kills all promise and development -- evil, or what evil should be understood as. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Her giving of parts to Marble... largely curses Marble, don't you think? Her body living on... appears to have been a furthering of something that can't be allowed more presence in the world, even as it would point to the destruction of a human life that deserved one hundred percent more love and kindness, as you argue.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042986883997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><img alt="pastedGraphic_6.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/85892045-60de-43b3-85dc-f604611f6ed2" /></span></li>
<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I don’t think I see it that way. It allows rose to do good in her death, because the flip side of evil believing it is good is that God turns evil to good - Augustinian theodicy. The fall allows a more glorious redemption. Death allows eternal life. This theme is so huge in Urth of the New Sun that I see it as the overwhelming position of the whole cycle- it is typhon’s Arrogance that preserves humanity - an evil doing a good.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156042994493997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> There is a place where we see human nature blind to itself - on blue. Humanity has the chance to start over and there is every indication they have chosen poorly in instituting slavery. The new world is worse than the old one, but humans can’t see it. Wolfe suggests subtextually In the fate of auk that blue is worse than green, but it is between the lines</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156043001598997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> This may not be quite what you're referring to, but I remember the lesson of why evil exists, as Silk delineates it. But unfortunately (or fortunately for those who'd want to find empowered there inclination to see something wrong about it) he does so by explaining why it is good to know the burns of a fire, at at time when, if I remember correctly, he is luring Horn out onto a ledge where he's not apt to learn a lesson but for agreeing to a possible predator's lures.... agreeing to suffering that "burn," just simply find himself dead. Evil... breaks good people; people who could have become good. That's a fact of life, as we become more and more aware, as the effects of trauma and malevolent parenting are more and more acknowledged as not generators of "character" but destroyers of selves, and our fear of maligning the predators, merging away from them and risking their disowning us, less and less prohibitorily scary (again, I think it is the existence of the Outsider that permits the Long Sun to be so withering about whom Rose is, what she does to people... she, the destructive mother, isn't now our only option; we have someone else we can reliably turn to). Your attention to Short Sun is interesting, but I'm just beginning to read again so can't now get involved with right now.</span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I hope at some point to explore just how much Wolfe's works support your thesis -- that evil is helpful, as it is that that promotes the good -- or that of current trauma theory, which shows people inhibited and destroyed by not being protected by those who were too enshrined to placating predators.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156043019978997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> By th way, I think that silk, in eating the tomato while aware of rose’s own hunger, reads as healthy experimentation in being able to incur and ride out her disapproval. It’s a way of not being debilitated in reading our environment as something — even if it is predatory — we always require being distracted by.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156043151823997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I see it in contrast to his later complete self-abnegation in short sun when he refuses to eat, denying himself in the process. The surface text makes us think perhaps it is a sign he is an inhumi or something, but it is merely a character sign: a slight tendency to gluttony denied completely. A Venial sin overcome.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(122, 129, 140); background-color: white; color: #7a818c;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10156040233468997/?comment_id=10156042903688997&reply_comment_id=10156043170478997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); background-color: white; color: #4e545d;">Edited</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015259594867"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Sunyi Dn</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I never intimated that we have no need of new Wolfe scholars. Not entirely sure where you got that impression from. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Without wanting to sound overly rude, I am afraid I find your replies exhausting to sift through; I feel they could be half the length they are (at least) and still convey all the same information. You'll forgive me, I hope, if we simply agree to disagree from here on out. </span></li>
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<li style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(21, 23, 25); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; color: #151719; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 21px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Good luck in your reading and your studies.</span></li>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-19552768966194830342018-12-19T05:52:00.001-08:002018-12-19T05:52:21.554-08:00Differences concerning Silk's "love" of Hyacinth<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: #ebedf0; color: #16191f; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 19px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></a></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> I don't buy that Silk isn't fiercely fixated on Hyacinth proper, only I'm not sure that it is really love for another person. In psychoanalytic, object-relations theory, there's explorations of people who relate to those they "love" as "object" to "self," rather than "self" to "other." That is, the other person fundamentally represents a youthful version of their own selves, that they, serving as a parent they would have wished for in their own lives... someone who is dutiful, loyal and loving, "love," thereby providing them with once-denied/lacking nourishment. Hyacinth... is of a young, naïve, girl's mind, who is pathetic but also absolutely adorable in her trying to tease Silk in her sincerely meant letter to him... she's to be kept and held forever in this pet form. Silk in "loving" her is in fact giving love to a much younger version of himself, that we've barely had chance to see in the text but represents the early vulnerability of us all, and especially those who've felt a strong feeling of distance from their own mothers. He can't extricate himself from this need, even as part of him has grown beyond it... to recognize the greater adult compatability that is him and Kypris. As Musk is to Blood... a fetish of "perfection," startling obvious and clumsy but resolutely adorable and courageous Hyacinth is to the knowing Silk. No one who is like this represents resolute goodness, as he's possessed of a very unfortunate perversion no one is around to help him escape. The suicidal impulse owes... ultimately to the Outsider, I suppose, in giving him a kind of childhood that would give him sight of mature love, but make difficult to impossible the path to it. This is really too bad... for the reader, because a mature relationship between Kypris and Silk would have been sublimely interesting to explore and encounter, as one would have been between Barnes and Serpentina in "Free, Live Free," as they folded into superior selves. Silk chasing after Hyacinth at the end of "Exodus" is one of the most pathetic things in sight... who'd want to exert much effort to reclaim that doomed soul. A great, great tragedy. </span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-56623653492405231462018-12-19T05:50:00.002-08:002018-12-19T05:50:47.353-08:00Taking credit for my theory as to how Severian perceived the undine and Jolenta's breasts<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #4e545d; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 20px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; min-height: 22px;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I'm going to take credit for a couple of things. I mentioned in one of my earlier posts the damage done to characters earlier in their lives is something Wolfe never seems to forget about his characters... were they grossly abandoned? were they repeatedly terrorized and beaten? -- if so, it's going to have a deep determining influence on them. With Severian I brought up how he was left alone without a mother, and with the undine and Jolenta, suggested that his reactions to them (... his being so compelled to join with the undine, after dreaming of joining with his mother after so many fruitless attempts; his attempts to describe Jolenta's breasts as simply beautiful, but not in a way which doesn't draw remembrance of mother and child, i.e., pregnancy, rather than simply of sex-goddess allure) were influenced by his projecting a lost mother onto them... the breastmilk that finally would be his. So, yesterday, I borrowed "Shadows of the New Sun," a book of interviews with and essays on Wolfe, edited by Peter Wright, and in an interview of his with Robert Frazier discovered he focusses in on the importance of this lost love, the absent mother, on Severian's life. He say, "Subconsciously, he (Severian) has been further marked by his loss of his mother in infancy. He has difficulty in forming relationships because of that, although he does sometimes form them, and he tends towards strong erotic attachments to women who subconsciously suggest the mother he lost. On the simplest level, this means toward women who are physically larger than he -- Thea, Thecla, the undine -- and to Jolenta, who has unusually large breasts."</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Wolfe directs here not to figure out who his mother ACTUALLY is, but whom he has projected her onto (which includes objects)... and how it influenced/determined his relationship with them, his take on them. If we read Wolfe's works this way, whether or not a character had any relationship to Severian... was sister, grandmother, or whatnot, may not be more worth our curiosity than those he TRANSFERRED the mother-son relationship onto. In a sense, it's a way of arguing that if you went through the text and weren't aware that revealed were many of Severian's actual relations, but had a perceptive understanding of how Severian's interactions with characters showed signs that they were influenced/complicated by his early life deficiencies, there is no exposure of you as a poor reader, but just as someone who put attention on what Wolfe himself was richly attendant upon. (I wonder personally if the source of the undine is whomever the source was of the description of "Peace's" aunt Olivia -- I suspect, of course, Gene Wolfe's own mother -- a person who was once thin but then let herself become corpulent, and who threatens to turn you into a complaint tool of hers: “my aunt soaked in a hot tub, and she often called me into the bathroom to fetch her a new book, or to bring her writing board, pen, and notepaper. The water was opaque with scented oil and foamed with lilac-scented bubble bath, from which her breasts rose and sank with the energy of her conversation. Originally small and pointed, they waxed, in the two years that passed between her marriage and my parents’ return, to globes, while her upper arms grew thick as the knees she sometimes thrust above the steaming water.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The second thing I'd like to take credit on, is my likening of Gene Wolfe's works to a study done by James F. Masterson, an object-relations psychoanalyst, on Thomas Wolfe. I matched up the repeated descriptions of ostensible epiphany in Wolfe's works, the sense of being rejoined into something "larger," sustaining and profound, that occurs for example with Severian amidst the holy grains of sand and to Able when he exists the fire mountain that had taken him into Muspel, with Masterson's take on similar-seeming passages in Thomas Wolfe. Well, it turns out... taken again from "Shadows of the New Sun," that G. Wolfe, discussing which works he most admires, thinks T. Wolfe the writer of America's greatest masterpiece of fiction: "... and 'Look Homeward Angel' [by Thomas Wolfe], which I feel is the 'great American novel' people still talk about; very few people in this generation trouble to read it."</span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1061327892"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Filippo Di Paola</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Your points are deep and spot on. </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(235, 95, 76); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #eb5f4c;"><b>Congrats</b></span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/yorgos.stasinoulias.3"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Yorgos Nls</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Great post !</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> The importance of the absent mother on a character's life, in Wolfe's works, leads not just to characters' "finding" this lost love through erotic transference, but to raging at them for their abandonment as well... thus the abandonment of Thecla when he could have saved her for suddenly abandoning all interest in him as she imagined herself rejoining her due high company, and ongoing diminution of her as any worth when consisting as part of him. Maternal abandonment is not always innocent in Wolfe's works, not always NOT INTENDED as deliberate rejection. "Peace" for example features a mother and father abandoning their young boy for somewhere between 6 months and two years while they frolic about in Europe, writing defensive, tone-deaf postcards to him of how wonderful it is in Nice (or where-ever) this time of year, while he recounts to himself, "... well, that's nice; what I'm doing lately is fetching random stuff for my aunt, who otherwise thinks me just another guest who'll pass through -- another rejection of interest -- watching her breasts lift up, then, sink, while lying in the tub, unconcerned of what this sort of wanton, assumed, eunuch-attendant... incest-akin exposure is doing to me, who'd rather just have her caring and respectful, thank you very much." Also in "Long Sun," with Blood reading -- correctly -- that his mother, Rose, wasn't all that concerned about leaving him to the streets, only to survive by prostituting himself. Both books explore how such mothers deal with the guilt of abandoning their sons, one by placating with presents, the other through, I believe, flat-out denial. There is some suggestion that the Wizard Knight story is about what happens to a boy after very early incestuous usage by an older woman, who thereafter tries to find some way in which this woman who played/preyed upon him can finally be made to answer to his own promptings, and so thereby regain some proper ego-boundaries that had been unfairly shattered at the bare commencement of his young adult life. After Disiri seduces him, young Able is in mind to kill a young boy for her, eager to do it in fact, and she titters at it, enjoys... that's a highly disturbed mental state, someone early on taken WAY of course, if I ever saw it... of which off course Wolfe is well aware, and presumes we're in mind to pick up on for it being so transparently there.</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ironnoir"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Stephen Gordon</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> I agree that Wolfe develops his protagonists in psychodynamic terms (closer to Jung, I would think, than Freud). This is one reason that it's so fruitless to respond to these characters, their words, and actions in terms of surface-level moral judgments. ("Wasn't it horrible for Severian to do X! And look, maybe he lied!")</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: white; color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/yorgos.stasinoulias.3"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Yorgos Nls</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Excellent point I could not agree more!</span><span style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); background-color: #eff0f2; color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff0f2; font-kerning: none;"> Wolfe seems to be aware of attachment theory (it surfaces in "Five Heads," when D. Million espouses its validity), which unlike Freud focuses mostly on the relationship between 0 to 3 years -- and thus mostly on the mother-son relationship -- and the particulars OF that relationship -- what is "good enough," or starkly abandoning? The foremost reason I'm wary to link Wolfe in with either Freud or Jung, is because of course early psychoanalytic theory turned against the proposition that little children weren't creatures of sexual desires/wishes but of significant incurred abuse, and the characters we meet throughout Wolfe's corpus are each distinguished as greatly used and discarded creatures, even if Wolfe, at his worst, makes a fetish state of it, by linking it an incurred pitiful status that functions to draw upon oneself, attention and love. Other than the psychoanalyist I mentioned, James F. Masterson, I would think the ones most appropriate to one's understanding of Wolfe, are the trauma therapists, Judith Herman and Bessel Van der Kolk ("Body knows the score"). Cheers.</span></li>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-89933512931576166032018-12-09T05:56:00.001-08:002018-12-27T04:45:00.271-08:00There's a scene in "Citadel"...<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 20px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARCGHnIfhLxzbRNCZsfe_KvdvPt79bmh8ilTn7F2M8bxWkrRaP3UOW0osTC_v2Uk5E-NKvCgCLF7DsRh&hc_ref=ARQlEzuaxs6W-wN1m1hNTtLdaX_RG9bfYJ_882lr9yUJZbP0cdDhdSMmNIEZ81ltCyY&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155985799598997/">December 4 at 3:06 PM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There's a scene in "Citadel" where an evil doctor tries to fool Severian into thinking that he isn't seeing what he thinks he's seeing; this bit:</span><br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">"The old man pinched his cheek. "He'll recover quickly--in time to warm my bed tonight. At his age they always do. Nay, it's not what you think. I only sleep beside him because the night-breath of the young acts as a restorative to those of my years. Youth, you see, is a disease, and we may hope to catch a mild case. How stands your wound?"</span><br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There was nothing--not even an admission, which might have been rooted in some perverse desire to maintain an appearance of potency--that could have convinced me so completely as his denial. I told him the truth, that my right cheek-was numb save for a vague burning as irritating as an itch, and wondered which of his duties the miserable boy minded most.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">This harm done by the doctor, this experimentation with patients, Wolfe has us associate with that of Nazi doctors: "[...] and I had a vision of children in flames."</span><br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">If reading Wolfe's works helps people being alert to the terrible damage, the sadism, people cloak with rationalizations... that whole societies collude together to obscure with rationalizations, he would seem to any liberal to be of the first order of writers to introduce people to. Through his protagonists' sensitivity, their perspicacity, and ultimate refusal to lie to themselves about what they know is true, to deceive themselves about their own weaknesses -- to resist at every opportunity, the strong urge to cover up -- readers too can come to see how many things they've themselves taught themselves to overlook that could have been made apparent from the start. His work could serve as great, great "modelling," to even question the legitimacy of whole institutions. Maybe their whole motivating purpose, no matter the ardency of defence of necessity, was the execution of evil behind a banal-enough face?</span><br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The challenge to argue that he isn't at all that -- and I don't think that this is by any mean certain; that he necessarily overall tilts this way -- comes to me from the fact that when he brings a bad example forward that could seem to bleed bad implications onto others -- as here with the doctor's patients, along with his devices to drain blood, could potentially double-back to have us reconsider what exactly motivates the torturer-client "relationship" -- the text works strongly to stop us short. No chance, for example, we'd ever wonder... after catching Typhon's preference for boys, perhaps, whether little Severian might also have helped keep big Severian "warm," for the text wants THIS as sheer truth: “I knew then how Dorcas had felt when Jolenta died. There had been no sexual play between the boy and me, as I believe there had at some time been between Dorcas and Jolenta.” And no chance, in contrast with the play between them, that his own repeated pourings into Jolenta was perverse, but only "quick and clumsy [...] (whom I might have been said to have raped, though I believed then and believe still that she wished it).” And no chance we'd ever wonder that torturers might often be up anything perverse with their clients, for in every instance they're portrayed as ultimately good... even Gurloes, who does what seemingly cowardly things he does, ultimately always for the good of everyone else in the guild. They don't so much possess a weakness for perversion, as simply lack a quality -- empathic consideration of their clients -- that could ultimately be attached to them, if only they were forced into experiencing things as a client for awhile. Even with this lack, if they err in how they treat their clients, it is never toward sadistic use of them, never towards perversion, but rather to in some way come to care deeply for them; hence the autarch explaining that his guild brothers had to treat Severian as harshly as they could because otherwise others would have been more likely to follow his example. This Wolfe seems more the one that would have a culture be gabsmocked at how prevalent abuse was in the priesthood, rather than one that would have picked up on, early, how "professional conduct" was clearly something that could be used to shield a culture that would, like a torturer's guild, be especially appealing for those who'd want a position of total power over the weak, to cast many thousands of kids into the flames of subsequently destroyed or severely hampered lives, and considered suicide... Severian's own ample vice. (cont'd in comments)</span><span style="color: #294387; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Alhaji Dada</b></span></a> The old man is a spy in service of Inire, I think. Who's role is to save severians life<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>We also learn a very important fact. Namely, the Aristocracy and the intelligentsia are all eaters of the dead. Corroborating what the librarian tells Severian in shadow.</span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Alhaji Dada</b></span></a> Also, few people notice that severian himself is a androgene: half man/half woman.<br />
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David A Stockhoff replied<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/brianmdoherty"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Brian Doherty</b></span></a> i read NEW SUN pretty much as it came out, when i was a teen and it became one of my very favorite books; i even RE read the first two vols, something i almost never do. as i have gotten more into wolfe commentary and scholarship, i have realized that i literally had no idea about around half of what was happening and why, yet STILL had that 'adore it' reaction. i don't know what that means.<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Alhaji Dada</b></span></a> "we hope that you would deceive yourself for the benefit of your race".... One of the most important and revealing passages in the tale.<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/eoin.crean.9"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Eoin Crean</b></span></a> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/brianmdoherty?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Brian Doherty</span></a> - I still don't have a clue what's going on in these books and they're my favourite works of fiction. Granted, the 'adore it' reaction didn't come on first reading but upon finding that my mind wouldn't leave that world even a month or two after first reading<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a> The way to argue that the text does, even in making such an obvious overt defence of how the professional conduct of torturers was on the level, encourage an in towards doubting it, is to note that it does enable, not a guild, not an institution, but a whole layer of the social strata as holders of powerful sadistic impulses -- the exultancy: it is at least possible that something that big that is wrapped in ideology that protects it, justifies it, is rotten to the core. The poor may possess a "thousand kindnesses," and the optimates, the middle class's standard retinue of mercantile values and vices, but the exultants are almost only, it seems, holders of sadistic motivations... they suck the life out of people, to give themselves sport. The autarch is never right to trust ANY of them. THEY orgasm at other's pain; THEY visit the most powerless -- prisoners -- to humiliate and terrify; and... THEY are provided some textual evidence as to why they are this absolutely horrible, one of which, has bleed.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
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We are told they are angry and want to hurt people because they don't know what is to be genuinely useful... like the soldiers of the Autarch, whose problem, we are told, what de-centers them, is that they don't know the stabilizing force of having families, exultants want to know what real work is, what being useful is like, but are refused by their role to ever know it, and this twists them badly. ALSO, and to our purpose, they don't so much have mothers but, rather, tutors and governesses... and though we are told they are ignorant of the whip, they certainly get hit, beaten... are perennially under "threat of the stick," "a lot." </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">They're malformed, and they knew beatings well. We aren't directly encouraged to connect the two, but the connection may be forged in our minds implicitly. And we might wonder the fate of those WHO ALSO knew beatings well, if they too were actually malformed by it... and this definitely takes us to the torturers' upbringing, for we know they were regularly beat by their masters, that it was certainly part of what could make them be deadly afraid of them, go "white" in the presence of them, and that it looks to have infiltrated how the boys engage with one another, for it's assumed practice to beat the hell out of your friends, even, to, ostensibly, manage them into line. These beatings are never so casually accepted to be forgotten... when Eata meets Severian after ages of separation, it's about the first thing he brings up... the blows Severian inflicted upon him, that apparently -- it is implied -- drew Eata to inflict the same on others. And Eata, we know, is the one and only torturer the text expliclty likens to the evil doctor, someone who could will/desire the infliction of pain upon people, when it delineates: “even if I were to dissolve the guild, Eata would become a torturer, as all men are, bound by the contempt for wealth without which a man is less than a man, inflicting pain by his nature, whether he willed it or not. I was sorry for him, and more sorry for Maxellindis the sailor girl." Eata would put his wife into the same subjected state of becoming a used object, as the evil doctor would put the boy he "treats." It's universalized as something that men just do, but Eata, as carrier for awhile of the torturers' own bullied, subjected... tortured childhoods, argues for another explanation that owes to treatment, how one was or wasn't treated, rather than universal nature. (This argument -- the pro case of not nature but how you are treated, in determining whether you end up other than severely malformed -- carries forward strongly in most of the rest of Wolfe's works.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">From there you work with the text's... with Severian's many brave examples of how we tend to want to discount, displace, avoid things... "circle attention from the recollection of," about ourselves (forced forgettings) we don't want to acknowledge (sometimes he just shows us how true this is, with for example his only very late late late in his account dealing with the matter of whether he raped Jolenta or not)... out of guilt, or shame, or discomfort, and you've uncovered, from the text itself, some justification for standing up to Severian in rebuttal of his defiant accounting of how the torturers can't possibly be accused of being as sadism-prone as exultants are, as not always being good men, and rather pretty much use their clients to carry the subjected, terrified state the boys themselves were subject to so the victim... the torturers in this case, knows the glory of being the perpetrator. And now you leave the text, without the outside critic's help, less susceptible to cooperating in the glossing over powers that exist in the world that will be in found in retrospect to have been powerfully corrupt from the beginning. You'll spot them out as quickly Severian does the evil doctor.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There is however one other consideration, that works against believing the text immunizes us to being those who'd let sustained abuse go, sans an outsider's, a critic's, "spotlight"... and it's a doozy.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Note: Severian's world is one where you often have to interrupt your appreciation of someone by a momentary consideration of something they've admitted to that strikes you as incredibly, starkly, foul about them. We may be more familiar with the foul appearing after you've been directed to hate someone you previously appreciated, like with the boy found in the bed of Baldanders -- an image out of the Shining -- but witness for example, this, from one Severian's soon-to-be allies, who'll give him the complement of his knowing the great thrill of becoming a military leader over willing forces: “My wife is hard on her when I am not at home," he told me. "Beats her and makes her scrub all day. It's good for the child, naturally, and it makes her happy to see me when I come back. But she would rather go with me, and I don't greatly blame her.”<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a> In the movie "Spotlight," none of the characters ever admit to ever being themselves victims of priests, only that "it could have been any of them." One wonders how many would have watched the film, encouraged it to win an Oscar, if known there would prove some reveal near the end where several of the reporters themselves admitted to being victims of ongoing rape as children.... where they lost the status of being the concerned but also the exempt, as the status of life-long "victim" encroached on them too. One wonders it, because a principle that Wolfe shows us through the example of Guasacht in how he encounters Severian at one point, is pretty accurately at work in most people today... though not, as I will delineate, concerning showing fear at the commencement of war, which in fact is actually "showy." When Guasacht registers that Severian is unconsciously conveying just how fearful he is of war, he banishes him to the back of the company, and Severian is saved from becoming an object the rest of the company can jeer and defile at their leisure, only due to Daria's kind contrivance to make their being at the back appear something other than what it really was. Severian here contemplates: "Fear is like those diseases that disfigure the face with running sores. One becomes almost more afraid of their being seen than of their source, and comes to feel not only disgraced but defiled. When the piebald began to slow, I dug my heels into him and fell into line at the very end of the column." Showing fear... defiles you, ostensibly. Yet in any conceivable macho world, what Severian shows of himself at the commence of battle, is not really going to seem a major strike against you. It's his first time into battle, a battle guaranteed not to be only skirmishes -- what Severian says it is axiomatic that mass charges devolve into -- but one that would have lines of troops, consisting of thousands, ultimately against one another, developing into a overwhelming torrent, and where the like of what happens -- people made into "bloody ruins," “troopers flying apart as though they themselves had contained small bombs, the head of the first bursting in a gout of scarlet, the neck and shoulders of the second, the chest of the third, the bellies of the fourth and fifth, and the groin (or perhaps on the saddle and the back of his destrier) of the sixth" -- was inevitable. Indeed, that's why senior combatants were inevitably going to know fear as well -- no one could really be exempt from it, even as everyone was to pretend they were. Severian can be shown as being fearful, for he doesn't really lose his audience by it... it doesn't really defile you... at least in others' eyes. Indeed, arguably it can serve as backgrounding that can promote you, for it serves as pre-text for making any subsequently shown effectiveness of yours, that much more telling of your worth: the tale Severian lends us of the young man he knew who'd never seen war, using a weapon he had to kill hundreds of enemy troops in his first battle, doesn't only lend to our sympathy over his thereafter being someone who stares at the ground and says nothing, but our admiration as well -- some kind of boy, there! Severian, with his not yet being wizened on how to better cover your fear so it's not as apparent, was akin in his innocence to this young lad, and so too his not only proving his word true that he wouldn't run unless others ran first, but proving an astonshingly effective trooper as well, cutting down enemy troops, left and right... "“I think I must have cut down half a dozen Ascians before I saw that they all looked the same... "“My own were to veer away from any dwarf who looked ready to shoot and try to catch others from behind or from the side. They worked well enough when I could apply them.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">What WOULD have defiled Severian.. certainly in "our" eyes, is if, for example, after Typhon had shown himself as some inflated authority figure who rendered his subjects into helpless, terrified children, who'd just dispensed with little Severian as if he was nothing and who'd casually admitted that if any interest in little Severian actually had developed, it would have been only for purposes for use as sex object, if Severian, already himself in a very precarious relationship vis-a-vis him... that was bordering on making him seem just another tool for a pederast's use, in making him into a Piaton, didn't prove a massive defiance of him but only quiescent, if he hadn't turned the tables on Typhon here, hadn't responded to this shaming by shaming the ostensibly all-powerful tyrant, defeating this man bragging about how he could lay waste to empires with nothing more than a quick whack to the face, and simply submitted to him, even if was very quickly saved by someone else we'd know that if he himself when younger he would have been exactly the kind of boy pederasts would have picked out for their use, and many of us would have rejected him for it. Total rejection, not just dispatching him to the back of the line; for while we can tolerate being with someone others would seem right to disparage as a torturer, a sadist, a misognyist -- someone who abuses, but is also one on top -- we can't have found out that there was anything in us that drew us to him for sensing a likeness... in his being a someone who could be easily cued in performing once again as "agreeing" victim, someone upon whom "a snare was closed," stronger than Decuman's, actually owing to Severian being summoned to perform in a role... he knew was actually customary of him. (To note, after this incident Severian makes sure that if there is any confusion as to who he resembles, the ready tool of a tyrant or a tyrant himself, it is to be of him as tyrant only: when he visits the shore people, he acts all Typhon-arrogant... bring me food and women slaves, or it'll be your head. And just before, with the sorcerers, when the possible threat of the textual assignment of little Severian as possible predator/predation-food of a company of men, could fuse onto him as well, if not handled right, Severian makes sure to terminate the encounter in what'll come across subsequently as full-on Typhon-arrogant mode... I am magus the great! And I could have killed hundred of you!) Whenever Severian encounters those that are helpless to be other than repeatedly victimized, he expresses deep sympathy for them... but to some extent this is performance-sympathy: it passes as him showing that his heart is in the right place, and serves as fitting in with the narrative account of himself he is developing for us of him as someone who was finally coming to empathize, but also does fitful work as contrast -- between the victim's status and his own -- so that we know that Severian himself is UNDERSTOOD BY THE VICTIMIZER in a very different way. Those who seek out those who'll work as victims, have shown they don't understand Severian as such... and this is something, though he would never express it in the text, he's grateful for. And if he ever attacked the assailant, it would have to be done in a way in which there would never be any confusion as to motivation... and if this isn't possible, then it's actually best to let the world of the terrorizer and the terrorized alone -- alas, left to their fates! -- and take advantage of the free space of ostensibly "at least being himself free"... like a first child, spared by his parents' knowing there would be others, the clinging, sadomasochistic psychology of his subsequent siblings.</span><br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">(to be cont'd, and finished, tonight, with discussi</span>on of Severian the precious)<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/gerryleb"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Gerald P Leb</b></span></a> "Perhaps light cultivates trees as fuel". Or something like that. One of the best scenes in the book. Of course, the doctor did in fact successfully treat Severian's wounds, let's not forget. But yes, he was a piece of work. So was Severian.<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a> Severian's manner of relating to little Severian is very impressive. In terms of modelling, it's better than how "the Knight's" Ravd relates to Able -- which nevertheless remains itself impressive -- because it's not so much emblematic perfect father, but perfect father, in the real: we witness him, for example, judging how best to answer's little Severian's brave inquiry of him concerning whether or not he hesitated to save his mother, in a manner that comes as close to full honesty that can be managed in that situation without it leaving the boy afflicted with truths that will simply shut him down. There's no tyrant in him; when little Severian innocently acts in a way which near costs both of them their lives, he takes care to guide him as to how he's going to have to adjust, without unduly shaming or cowing him. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The tremendous credit I felt to Severian here, is probably why I was a bit sickened by Wolfe in presenting these protagonists subsequently with the obstacle of Typhon, because Typhon plays to a weak spot in Severian's character that Severian can't help but fall for... and therefore amounts to the sort of callous mis-use of someone you'd created that "Gene Wolfe" was guilty of with his character Brick in "Last Thrilling Wonder Story." Severian's way of interacting with little Severian is not especially old-school, but almost bears resemblance to the ideals of contemporary parenting, where you readily draw yourself into the situational experience of your child to know how best to communicate with them so what you say has relevance. Typhon to... any of his subjects, is definitely old-school, where you don't ever forge this sort of connection -- the sort that'd ever have you say the like of Severian's "in some ways I am no wiser than you" -- where you always keep yourself hoisted into a status where a strict line divides you and anyone vulnerable, because to admit to being able to relate to someone's vulnerability means leaving room to be sized up as someone who yet themselves remains so. And in Typhon's company... like a teenager who's being admitted to a more elite sect, suddenly acting differently towards his old friends while amongst his new crowd whom he knows would think differently of him and cast him back out, if exposed that he could at all "relate" to these clear "losers," Severian becomes in no way simply "bigger" than little Severian, but as if always cast out of a different mold. His status now is actually more epic than Typhon guesses his is (I believe Typhon suspects him the conciliator... who yet remains), and as well, his powers -- Typhon, unaware, is taking on someone who cannot but succeed... a reveal that comes out later in a way that shames Typhon as oblivious, culpably so, for it being available... in the ether as it were, to be sensed -- and his status "then," in the past as he was at the same age as little Severian... just doesn't seem someone who would, twice, haplessly run into dangers that make you ready predator food, like little Severian does, but more like a boy who would be soon due to kill a man much older than he was, when he himself is of the mood to do something spontaneous. Severian, sensing that what is at issue with Typhon is whether someone given textual support as someone who recognizes a rival, but also a natural supplicant, and not being himself actually being someone who could deal with being spotted out in the shame of undisguised, unredeemed vulnerability, forces the encounter as one between titans -- the strong man who gloats like Smaug, and the never-truly-defeated smart man, who, caring what-not about the other's presentation of himself as invincible, never stops looking for advantage. Given that this presentation of himself has to carry so "to make it clear" his ostensibly essential self as winner, the one "redeemed" by a bit of tricky bait-and-switch with an ostensible, undefeatable master, it is no surprise that for a good long while there are no remembrances of little Severian to inspire anything as precarious as a retrospect re-think. He pops back in midway in "Urth," I believe... or in his most standout fashion, when we really once again focus on him again, in any case.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Wolfe inflicts the same mean trick on Severian when he springs the witches -- specifically, the Cumean -- onto him when he and Dorcas were looking for help with the text's then current embodiment of vulnerability, Jolenta. At that time with Jolenta, Severian is admitting that he has come to be more interested in her, more keen on involving himself with her in a way with that allows a more coherent understanding of her, better focus... for the "first time," he is "noticing" things about her, always previously available to be noticed. Whereas before he had her pushed out as someone who depresses rather than lifts a group's spirit, as someone who's sole purpose is to garner admiration -- something ostensibly antipathetic to the nature of all rest of the company -- making her much worse than of no help or a hassle, but a beguiling vampire of everyone's life-blood, now he is humanizing her... seeing her as someone who in no way deserved the severity of the punishment that fate was handing out to her, and, when idealizing, doing so in a manner where not snuck into it, commentary that is snake-mean (... chafing thighs, breasts reminiscent of a woman's belly, pregnant with baby), but acknowledgement of truth -- possession of charms which give and elevates, rather than misleads or takes away -- in a way more unambiguously expressive of respect, and respect only. No more simply a perfect beauty-machine of opulent flesh, an always, ALREADY-spoiling flowering, that menaces other women by making their true beauty rendered into monstrosity (Thecla's) or stunted immaturity (Dorcas's), but ONLY JUST NOW over-ripened into setting decay, ONLY JUST NOW, and not before, a "flower too long blown, the very end of summer to Dorcas's spring." She's not just worse than nonsense anymore, but someone whose take on things... might in fact prove right: her fears about what lies ahead in the wild, Severian ends up gauging, after originally dismissing them, quite possibly, very precisely bang on.</span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a> But like as with Typhon, the Cumaean represents a harsher old-school presence, the anti-thesis of this sort of advanced, humane relations, and also the sort that'd be lookout for nothing more than viable signs of weakness in others and who would be reliable in spotting you out on it (contra her apprentice Merryn, she knows what sick motivations, Jolenta is moved by) which Severian isn't evolved enough not to think he couldn't be managed into "admitting" about himself through the "evidence" of actions he was clearly coming to categorize in a different way, that is, as actually a source of supply, of strength. If this sort of old authority, one that might be akin to what you'd known when you first were raised up, when perhaps, as with Gurloes, you knew from the way you were handled or abandoned just how things were "harder, much harder" and less sympathetic back then, of someone who early on caught you out as powerless victim, made you feel that quintessentially, that is who you yet are, gauges you a weakling, a predator's ready food... you're at risk of not thereafter being able to shut that self-assessment out for it also being YOUR FIRST... ostensibly obviously THE TRUTH, that is, and thereby bear a degree of shame and rage and extent of self-fragmentation that'd destroy you... all your forward progress, an illusion. And so the whole show with the Cumaean, after Severian is exposing himself as... a man who relates, amounts almost to a performance Severian was going to have to agree to partake in, a repudiation and defacement of his emerging caring, relating self, so that someone who'd recognize this exposed sympathy as a spotting out of someone's genuine-known thorough vulnerability once being a core part of himself, rather than something learned from how others differed from one, would agree NOT TO FORCE the recognition, this devastation, too manifestly upon him. So the Cumaean floats the "reward" of Severian being a great personage, one, like her, lucky to be counted in the rare fraternity of the wise and powerful, "a [fellow] sage in time," thereby severing his associational relationship with "victim," and proceeds to more or less force him to be inert to the swag of her commanding, dominating, domineering presence (her having everyone hold hands to command forces from afar is reminiscent of Silk own total control in his exorcism of Blood's mansion, the first scene where Blood agrees, truly, to be a supplicant of Silk's), in a scene where we don't just go back in time, but where precepts of earlier times, where things were tougher and less sparing, gets displayed, as we witness younger people and the vulnerable -- get old-fashioned "schooled." Severian won't again "awaken" to Jolenta until there's no life at all in her, until then, only his witness to the stark ugly contrast between her and the vibrant... between her and Dorcas and Severian; and Merryn, her acolyte, evidently eager to appear masterly, tries to spout knowledge and wisdom, and for it gets spanked down and publicly shamed as someone who "speaks by rote like a starling in a cage," as someone who only by chance speaks knowledge (“She's right," she croaked. "Though she does not know it”) while Severian’s instinct for where to look for truth is estimated profound (“In my sabretache, I have a book called The Wonders of Urth and Sky, and the story is told there.” “That is the wisest of all the books of men," the Cumaean said.”) and is revealed and essentialized as someone who's relationship to her master, to her Mother, no more than collapsable doll to orchestrating owner.</span><br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Severian ends up being applied in the text as someone who ever-rides a guaranteed path to success… someone who more truly traverses the guaranteed easy road than any exultant could ever righteously claim to, but even before he learns himself of such inheritance, he surely knows himself someone who could break out onto life in a Darwinian-success-story way. We’re told, for example, that he’s only ever been called a coward when he was a small boy, and the only example he gives of himself as maybe such… or at least of himself as fearful, is when being a cowardly small boy, being an afraid young boy, makes him resemble — but every other boy in the world involved in that kind of circumstance… one who might, but who actually doesn’t in this instance, duck out as soon as possible from the witches’ tower. He acknowledges as an adult having a core child in him, but makes this “exposure” one of the ways you distinguish an actual real adult from a fake one — the real one, of course, the one who acknowledges the fact, rather than denies and claims himself an exception; it isn’t Severian that shows something particular about himself when in a battle of magicians he is magicked into thinking himself “small and contemptible,” but only… the universal, until you know manhood. Severian just hasn’t known any profound shame in his childhood, he floats above, and the reason you know this, the reason you ostensibly know this, is because there is no rage in him that could come out… to expose himself the sufferer of a personal wound/betrayal of it—all—happening—to—a—wee-child magnitude… little-Severian-watching-his-mother-being-eaten severity. Sure, with Master Asch he becomes irked and angry, and with the autarch, he even admits of “all his terror turning rage,” but it all gets settled down quick… and the reason we know this is because if we were asked about which characters in the “New Sun” revealed themselves of explosive rage and anger, we’d never think, well, Severian of course, but of Baldanders and Agia, obviously. There is some kind of deep humiliation within Baldanders for him to turn so explosively at the Hierogrammates in the audience, risking his own demise… everything he was in the process of building for himself, in doing so. And in the psychodrama between they and him, the only way he-of-no-possessed-deep-shamed-status could fit in, the only way Severian could fit in, is as someone who spurred yet more rage in him… as he “innocently” does, in becoming the much saluted arrival at Baldander’s own hopeful meet-and-greet engagement with the aliens at his newly built castle (not likely to be noticed, but how Severian applies himself here, in “innocently” stealing the show away from the eager, ultimately humiliated hosts, is very much akin-activity to Thia, Thecla and other exultants,’’ who are always ready to see temporarily elevated “friends” — or lovers — dropped low, discarded, terribly suddenly and starkly, so that they themselves, through making others feel dislike them in their sodden dismay, can feel more distinguished and carefree again.)<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a> Readers intuit this as perhaps the text’s core lesson: not just to learn to be kind, but to be hypersensitive to how you apply yourself if you're going to be kind: if you’re going to help people, be as the armigers who volunteered to count amongst those serving time in the prison of the House Absolute… in some way, have it made clear that if you look as if you're at the bottom, you've still somehow made clear that you’re a class apart, and that if they come after you, they'll have to deal with a "you" that knows he's not defenceless... that, at minimum, he's got friends. Never let the distance close, too much, between you and the genuinely helpless, genuinely afflicted. You can allow yourself to be seen as afraid a little bit, as lacking courage a little bit, as being spiteful a little bit, as being perhaps, wonky in the head... a bit insane, a little bit -- especially as the whole text contexts you as being the most intellectual and honest… the most fully PRESENT torturer, ever, making this admission crowded out by other trustworthy characters’ counters. But you don’t ever present yourself so that anyone would guess that those boys who were preyed upon and victimized by ghoulish adults, was ever once actually you. It cues you to make use of your fellows, the opportunity of your fellow readers of Wolfe, so that they can offer wonderful counter to you... as those who surely truly suffered, were victimized as children, for taking up a bait given in this work, in many of Wolfe's works, to become rageful and angry at some of what Wolfe applies as tease-for-rage that you remain uninvolved with, ostensibly insouciant to. In this text it's Wolfe's reveal of the Pelerines as perhaps the most truly ghoulish people ever... Winnoc, their slave, delineates them those who can present themselves as kind and sweet to their servants, as possessing slaves who do the best of service, so they'd pass as hosting the most beneficent "household" ever -- a model "commonwealth," a Utopia -- in much the same way Russian communism passed as a model societal system to fooled visitors like Bernard Shaw, because if ever a slave displeases them they immediately get sold to work the mines... rendered into the worst of all possible fates. And after hearing of this, this cause to go after the Pelerines in a more devoted way than Severian ends up hunting after Baldanders -- a matching up of these almost-entirely-only exultant constituted fraternity, with the rest of the exultant pack, in being the most truly sick and sadistic people alive, we're forced to encounter him having only having the nicest sweetcakes-with-tea sort of discussion with the head of the Pelerines, Mannea. Before meeting her, he discusses himself as "disgraced and outcast and homeless, without friend and without money," but its "truth" is fundamentally a misrepresentation of himself, for if he himself had become someone who'd effectively been shipped off to the worst of fates, the most forlorn of fates... if he'd been, in effect, sent to the mines, known the lowest, the "bottomest" state possible, as he says he has, he's not feeling so "all would be well" here but tasking to account for this crime those who could apply this sort of fate to people, not because they'd proved themselves traitorous, for any reason, seemingly justifiable, but for merely falling short of constant demonstrated excellence, and who were excused for ever being reprimanded on it for being able to cast blame entirely on the victim -- you were the one who sold yourself into our slavery… so the fault’s “clearly” with you. Severian, who eventually connects the dots between his own responsibilities and crimes he'd previously ascribed only to others -- he admits for example how he permitted Agia to bait another driver into going through a reckless ride through the streets of Nexus, making us see how before this was almost factored out as a potential thing that could have happened... as if Severian was simply caught out in surprise, rather than someone who was even there, keeping his head -- at some level knows it’s complete withdrawal from him here, with no explanation, just a denial and stubborn intentional withdrawal of interest. He's the voice here of the textually often encountered, "there was was no reply,” that has someone out there — hopefully some readers feel, you — feeling snubbed.</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span></a> Severian is a knight for her, telling her he'll do whatever she wishes, even taking by force someone who'd done nothing to him, and whom Mannea had no claim upon -- Master Ash -- and the reader has a choice, they can either get severely angry at Severian, and likely also with Wolfe, with so evidently betraying the high principle of good faith in people that gets sacrificed here, or, they can take advantage of the fact that at some level they know some readers are going to feel like they've been taken on a ride here, denied something they were expecting, without explanation, or even textual admittance that it had even happened, to go along counting themselves akin to Severian in being those who might miss something like that, might be guilty of that "crime" of not making the connection here, because as much as they care that people not be abused, most of their lives has been one where they've only ever been those who been seen as favourites that it takes effort to remind themselves that some of those who have treated them so well, have in fact treated others deplorably. We get baited this same offering in "Long Sun" as well, where Silk, after delineating exactly how society got so bad, rests his focus entirely on the villainy of Blood, and on no one else but he — the buck stops there! — AFTER, that is, providing a lead to a more profound and central source, with its textual proof that the reason Blood was so bad was because his mother abandoned him to the streets to live a life prostituting himself to survive. Matera Rose did that to him, but if you don't take up the opportunity Silk provides himself here to be a knight to the principle source of abuse, to Marble/Rose, be her arm in the struggle against "evil," and rage instead at being bated and suckered, then you'll have revealed yourself akin TO BLOOD as someone who himself is built out of humiliation, abandonment and suffering -- of being used -- for it is only Blood here who rages out of control. Same thing happens in "the Wizard," as Garsecg, after genuinely delivering fatherly stewardship over Able, after providing him with resources with which to best a world, after possessing genuine claim on his loyalty, is told in an off-hand manner that that thing he was hoping Able would do for him in return, that business of defeating that giant woman made of worms that Able knows for only two seconds... well, about that… I actually did take her on as wished, but somehow forgot to tell you. My bad! I lost, btw… tough nuts! Able teases him into exploding anger, and so, also, us... and as readers again we know the score: to become angry at the text means duplicating the same rage that exposes one as someone built out of some deep-core humiliated status, but to be insouciant, oblivious, as if the obvious denial, terrible, ruthless teasing and egging on... the cruel playing to someone's susceptibility, hadn't happened, means we get to pretend it's others, not us, who've learned to be sensitive to these thing, for their only knowing what it is to not be "able," to not be amongst the chosen, to not being the preferred, to not be the one susceptible to being applied as precious. "Sorcerer's House" -- your brother rages at you endlessly, not because you bait and tease him with your favouritism, but because he's not as able as you are, with his not having magic and being the runt of the family and all that -- and probably many other of Wolfe’s works, carries the same sort of baiting dynamic as well, a tease to some readers to demonstrate a rage of unfair treatment which amounts to show for other readers, that they could only be defined as those who've been spared knowing victim status. Wolfe can offer us this service, but so too many corrupt institutions in real life that produce screams of anger and violence from their victims, SO THAT, through comparison to them, they serve to help us present ourselves, to ourselves, as basically a spared people.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The reason Wolfe has so many people delineating themselves as those who are onto Severian as an ostensibly unreliable narrator, by the way, the reason it seems the first thing said by anyone concerning Severian, owes to a felt sense that there is a terrible game at play that is attempting potentially to make sick work of them: thus their justified instant defence of themselves as fundamentally unsusceptible, as those who can’t be fooled but rather are the first to spot out a fooler. The text primarily draws people not so much to spot out crimes, but to work to distinguish themselves from victims. You have to make yourself immune to this draw, to have yourself shown as revealing your inherent core victimhood, in order to do the very best study… to be fair to the whole of Wolfe’s legitimately wonderful offerings. Otherwise, Severian’s not to be disproved a liar, even if he isn’t one, and other mistakes of appraisal will continue to accumulate, as our study of Wolfe becomes our show that we too are immune to bait.)</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-72237991616704796152018-12-04T05:12:00.001-08:002018-12-04T05:12:18.658-08:00Autarch<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #16191f; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 20px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none;">The autarch in Book of the New Sun has always grated on me. Severian insists on his being a good man, the best overall autarch, but I think his account is over-fond of a man who to me is more readily despicable than either Typhon or Ash (the truths Ash inflicts on Severian are read as massively wounding to him; Typhon gives overt room to hate his guts), in that he is left as someone who, even as he admits... while always scaling way above the little truths women share with one another, to no knowledge of Truth, pretty much knows everything as much as anyone can.<br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">And what does he know? That there is something called "human nature," and that his expertise in it allows him to manipulate and manage every one of his subjects so they're always kept under control... "happy enough with their careers to continue, and discontented enough with their fates..." The text doesn't allow us to want to see him -- this guy who sounds like the most cynical sort of capitalist overlord here, who uses behavioural science, total knowledge of "you," to keep everyone fated to his brand -- as someone we want to see, not due to be killed, but who should be "killed"... perhaps in much the same way Typhon is killed, for sheer insufferable ignorance and willed desire to keep people low for, ostensibly, their own good, because it insists on him as someone who always smiles so fatherly at Severian and who is ok in his being displaced as ruler of a small universe by him. The guy whom we should leave prepared to accuse as using "human nature" to justify his own surveillance/total management of people, his own desire to close down all the roads of potential human growth, we can't -- just instead participate in the close-proximity of maybe coming to be as wise as he is one day, ultimately able to sum up everyone else around you in a way that diminishes them (Dorcas turned out to be one of those who...) and implicitly exults yourself.<br />
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">He probably also garners authority, righteousness, for the calm assurance of his ability to daunt Thecla back into the recesses of Severian's mind, when it suddenly manifests, for his need to talk to Severian, now, alone. He's the patriarch who floats over everyone else's sinful nature in "Free, Live Free," and we're baited into not making much of a query of it because... he's fated to die, after all. Severian is maddened, maddened, at Ash for his not being aware of how his "truths" settle on someone who'll be afflicted by them. Why weren't we allowed to feel this way with the autarch?... or, that is, why weren't we allowed to feel JUSTIFIED, as we weren't quite with Ash, if we felt rage at him, for Severian does get maddened at him for having sent him to war without knowing anything of it, but the autarch is permitted in response, total and complete rebuttal. Why does the autarch have greater stature, than even angels (I'm thinking Melito's tale)... for he alone being someone who's considered everything, and who really can't now be questioned? Because he, unlike the angels, knows to administrate down his self-presentation -- from the start -- when talking to someone... is that it, only?</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-37191711072807042582018-12-04T05:09:00.002-08:002018-12-04T05:09:35.569-08:00Severian as Jolenta<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #16191f; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 19px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none;">The fate of Thecla once she is transposed into Severian, is not exactly enviable. She's been told she would one day sit on the throne, and beyond this... actually accurate foretelling, being delivered to her in the most mockingly cruel way possible, she suffers other indignities... like for example being made essentially silent to voice her own preferred self-assessment, and thus forced to live presented by Severian as in "many respects a cruel and foolish woman." We know that it is owing to her that Severian escapes the prisons of the House Absolute -- but this knowledge of how escape can be achieved works also to betray her as one who herself used the whips by the perpetrating exultants who made use of the secret opening her memory reveals, a crime designated as way worse than any torturer's, because Severian's account of torturers as never, ever, ever sadistic -- all good men, these torturers -- is never given overt textual challenge (by way of contrast, exultants are I think three times shown as taking sadistic relish... including once, orgasm, at other's humiliation and pain). Severian also ends up sourcing her as probably the source of his newly installed capacity of imagination, but this fact is never subsequently recalled... to in some means restore some respect for her, when he later goes on to boldy imagine things. Thecla is portrayed as ultimately being willing to fight and die for Severian, but it seems almost beyond imagination to conceive of someone willing to do this for him after being portrayed this way, without at least first being allowed to offer a counter-take. Baldanders too fights for him, but he's relegated into being just someone who chose evil (and, apparently, to one who carries and expresses the rage and anger Severian himself will admit to holding but almost always keeps restrained)... after being someone Severian and we ourselves were clearly delighted upon discovering we were again happening upon another chance to meet with again -- his presence, was a gift. Agia was to be corralled as someone who displayed "the hopeless courage of the poor," but escaped this parable-encasement to become... nothing short of very, very accomplished. But her gaining a throne, this breaking of class expectations, is, even as Severian has always admired her courage, and even as he even admits to borrowing her own innovations, maligned by being worth only an evil doctor's mockery of it as an "exultancy," while Severian's remains only worth due reverence. (Though there is some room for arguing for the importance of the text's counter-evidence, I would say it is mostly true that it is only when you show yourself stuck, limited, imperfect... not a voice for progress, justified ambition... proof of possible human perfectibility, that Severian will apply nice acclaim to you... witness the poor who are applied as possessing "thousands of kindnesses" after amounting to, not a hive of ambitious bees, but no more than a spread-out mass of doomed individuals an autarch would survey as he recounts the end of an age.) In reply to all of this, I think it appropriate to show how Severian writes a narrative, almost from a scrubbed perspective, so he seems immune to motivations he applies to others to condemn them, so collecting... only benefits, due to be unlikely to ever find himself called on it because he expects his readers will be in a sense be living themselves through him and so collecting through their identification with him, the very same benefits, via proxy. Yet indeed how much of the text could be made to seem that that someone who desires acclaim, attention... who is suspected of desiring it above all things, of being himself a Jolenta -- and thus due, given how the text receives her, the harshest of condemnations for it -- would contrive to cover his ass.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Severian almost admits himself one who missed out on much-needed, early maternal attention -- his rise not being someone who emerged out from out of being a torturer to sitting on a throne, from someone who lacked empathy to someone of ample store of it, but someone who healed to some extent through repeated takings of appreciative attention from parental/senior figures he'd been born immediately shortchanged of (a harsher take would be that he never grows, only collects hits of narcissistic "notice" that lift and then subside, like an addict collects highs, that leaves one actually lower for their always coming at others' expense). A Kleinian/Mahlerian/Winnicotian reading of the text is given explicit support,(1) in Severian twice talking about a visit of the bequeathing maternal breast/attention he'd never known... and of how welcome it was! But it's implicit too, the shortchanged "oral" supplies of nurturance, in how many times he is permitted to show he's special, favoured, by other onlookers; of all objects available to view, he himself is guaranteed the deepest focussed interest... perhaps always. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">All the boys chose hideouts of their own, but Severian's is the only one that is clearly an exultant's or armiger's... if the others are too, we never hear notice of it... or at least, his seems more special, more of refined taste, at any rate. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Life is saved by a god-woman of the sea, making a spectacle of him no one who saw would ever soon forget. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">He's chosen to be the server for Thecla, the most prestigious client the torturers ever held in their power. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">He's the absolute favourite of Palaemon. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">He leaves the guild and finds himself immediately in a position where he can humiliate another... probably someone of about the same age as he, in their lack of professionalism, becoming the temporary favourite, ally, of a senior lochage.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">When in Nexus proper, let known immediately that his height makes him seem to others a sure armiger, even in this home of the cosmopolitan-knowing. Pelerines size him up as honest and don't touch him, while degrading Agia by readily stripping her. Has Hildegran spying on him repeatedly, someone very close to Vodalus, that is, who is so undoubtedly sure of his ginormous importance that he never stops harping on it to Vodalus. Is accepted as an armiger by Hildegran, while Agia, the person who urged him onto him as such, is assessed as "mistress slops." Innocently possessed of treasures others revere and desire beyond measure; never the provincial who wandered into the big city, thinking what he brought with him from home, still worth recognition. All the vipers the big city has to offer come out to destroy him, but to a one, come out with their teeth blunted by contact. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">In Saltus, told by a wise man -- the green man -- that he is about the only truly caring person around. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Shows professionalism on stage, while an alcade shows everywhere his own nervousness, as well as his own desire to be the center of attention. An exultant shames himself through orgiastic release at the lapse of a client's life, while Severian keeps focussed... only sporting a bit of understandable excess in the end, by, after successfully pulling off a complicated execution that was on path to go badly, pretending to throw the head into the crowd. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Enters mines and rather than be rendered powerless, finds himself deemed a god. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Is captured, and rather than proving something than augments the esteem of the capturers, ends up using this "inconvenience" to showcase himself as of unique value and worth to someone he fears might doubt it (Severian never forgets that Vodalus never thanked him for saving his life, and that he gave him in return for it something that would be of huge value only to the poor... Severian later communicates this to him, by offering him total repayment through the offer of any one of those coins he could fiddle with in the contents of his bag). </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Masters and rides a bull, thus becoming a man of myth to any and all observers to his act of wonder. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">God-woman of the sea near kills herself to claim him.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Revealed as one and the same as Apu-Punchau, a man of invaluable worth. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Taken as an exultant, not an armiger, when in Thrax. Repeatedly told how handsome he is. Told he was a Master Torturer already, and how he was so talented his skills were wasted on the profession. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Is deemed a Master Magician by a company of real magicians... even as if this could only feel a bit less than half-earned. (Kind of earned, though, in that behind it is the rage of someone who is likened to magician in that she transforms "murder" out of "justice," and herself into a giant personage after having only been a bean.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Even as the boy he is with amounts to nothing, is told by someone who would otherwise have ruled the world that his is of such conspicuous, obvious worth that the world will be allocated his. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Giant stone soldiers salute HIM, not... to his humiliation, Typhon. Typhon suffers blow to narcissistic self-image; Severian's own -- if it actually existed -- is inflated. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Enters a primitive village and succeeds in mastering them all -- he is caged, only because here in this remote spot the autarch's influence is presumed so weak lesser powers could contend over it; is chosen to lead the attack against the terrible giant. De facto, white savior. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The visiting aliens of the north turn out to be mostly interested in him not, as was expected, Baldanders! Newly arrived, once again he steals the show away from those it seemed due for. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Arrives in camp for the wounded, judged clearly of superior education. Instantly made a judge. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Seen as of such conspicuous worth, chosen to retrieve valued recalcitrant visitor by the head of the Pelerines. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Visits Ash; proves only one ever who figured out mystery of the tower. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Enters company of Guasacht; worth is so immediately apparent was due to replace his second... the one of armiger status, Eredus. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Autarch-love... thank god we found you! Told whole armies would be sacrificed to have some better chance of obtaining him. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Agia captures Severian, but emboldens him, diminishes herself, in the very act of trying to humiliate/scare him. She tells him of all the tortures he will be subject to, and he innocently shames her by delineating their evident ineffectiveness. She is told to school herself better, and granted no retort other than shamefacingly turning away. Greatest position of power she'll ever be over him, and he yet turns her into a joke. All innocent, though.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Vodalus' skepticism... repaid by having him -- the great Vodalus! -- disposed of casually... by Agia, who got rid of him through the flick of a space bug -- not much regal-appropriate in that -- the very moment he denied her. Vodalus being the only one who had the temerity to remind Severian of just how hard he has tried in the past to show how much attention he is always ostensibly due, and of how ready he is to discount, not think of, what, rather, others have done for him, that he hasn't yet much provided any acknowledgment for. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Finds himself accepted onto a ship. They gauge him, instantly, a man of great prowess, and he is innocently successful in compounding that estimation by doing tricks with the captain's own sword that dazzled the crew as much as Vodalus could not help but being when Severian did that impossibly heroic entrance into their forest abode. Complements the inflation of himself with diminishment of the captain... and the crew, by their thinking the captain himself actually a man of any worth. No sir! Only the great Severian!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Upon nearing the Citadel, ably breaks of thumbs of two of an officer's men, to be taken to a superior authority, who instantly recognizes him as at the very least one whose battle-acumen and experience deserves respect. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Goes to the Citadel; everyone who's ever known him... even in the faintest, makes it so they were always besties with him. A star is born!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Dr. Talus visits him... someone who only ever uses people, kindled, it is suggested, into visiting Severian, for his being responsible for his being kindled into genuine life like Pinocchio; out of gratitude (I like this bit, though.) The genius Baldanders put so much into constructing him, but only Severian really brought him to life. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">In addition, he and his friends are often seen as they must inevitably have been from those outside their entourage, unaware of the circumstances that put them together, and it's always flattering in that it makes them all sources of profound mystery and wonder, never something to be overlooked -- Severian's professed ambition, at one point. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Jolenta's crime, a crime so harsh it lead to the text's most astonishingly severe judgment, was "the incessant performance whose sole goal was to garner admiration." Doesn't Severian incessantly perform in much the same way -- always garnering admiration -- but in a way sort of invisible to people as a sign of need, and thus done in a way immune to the backlash of shame and guilt, until pointed out by the critic... as quite obviously so? Severian's account might in a sense be deemed fundamentally Jolenta's, only scrubbed.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“Even now I cannot help but wonder how much any of us see of what is before us. For weeks my friend Jonas had seemed to me only a man with a prosthetic hand, and when I was with Baldanders and Dr. Talos, I had overlooked a hundred clues that should have told me Baldanders was master. How impressed I was outside the Piteous Gate because Baldanders did not escape the doctor when he could.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">(1) “In our kitchen I lifted a cup of stolen wine to my lips—and found it had become a breast running with warm milk. It was my mother's breast then, and I could hardly contain my elation (which might have wiped the memory away) at having reached back at last to her, after so many fruitless attempts. My arms sought to clasp her, and I would, if only I could, have lifted my eyes to look into her face. My mother certainly, for the children the torturers take know no breasts. The grayness at the edge of my field of vision, then, was the metal of her cell wall. Soon she would be led away to scream in the Apparatus or gasp in Allowin's Necklace. I sought to hold her back, to mark the moment so I might return to it”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“My eyes brimmed with tears at the sight of them, because they were shaped like that claw that is the Claw, that once lay concealed in the gem that I, in my ignorance, called the Claw of the Conciliator. The Autarch saw I was weeping, and told the woman-cats they were hurting me and must put me down. I felt like an infant who has just learned he will never see his mother again.”</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-42236892615615817682018-11-30T05:31:00.003-08:002018-11-30T05:31:45.673-08:00Discussion of Severian, at the Gene Wolfe facebook appreciation site<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/">November 26 at 9:30 PM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Been listening to the Alzabo Soup Podcast and I’m hugely grateful for their insights, but I take issue with their assessment of Severian’s psychology, or maybe his underlying political theory.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I think Severian is a pretty good observer of human nature and the folks at Alzabo Soup (AS) seem to think that his worldview is overly cynical and misogynistic. I’m listening to their analysis of chapters four and five. The AS folks argue that Severian has got it all wrong when he uses the relationship between the torturers and their “clients” as a metaphor for all human relationships. “All love that which they destroy,” Severian declares.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I think what Severian is getting at is that questions of power infect every human relationship, even in relatively free societies. Power is an aspect of the human condition that simply cannot be evaded or avoided. Somebody always has more of it than someone else in virtually every relationship that ever exists. Sometimes this power differential can be reversed, sometimes it is hidden, and sometimes it can be negotiated to be more palatable or just, but it’s there.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The trajectory of Severian’s career, particularly as it is described in The Urth of the New Sun, serves as a metaphor or meditation about the legitimate use of power and to what ends this power should be wielded. The underlying political theory that I discern from these texts is that for power to be legitimate, it needs to serve the interests of human survival and flourishing. Typhon wields power illegitimately, Severan for all his faults, uses it for legitimate purposes. As monstrous as he is, he takes threats to human survival and welfare personally. I admire that.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">The folks at AS also take issue with his description of women looking upon men as their quarry. After a fair degree of observation and reflection, I have concluded that women size men up to see if they are up to the task of providing habitable order for them and their offspring. (If you hear echoes of Jordan Peterson, guilty as charged). The folks at AS call this misogyny. I don’t think it is. Women size men up and vice versa. It’s how we are wired.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">We don’t like to think about the extent to which people use other people as instruments to achieve their goals, but anyone who has served in a war, as Wolfe has, cannot kid themselves about this reality. Generals send people off to war to die to achieve goals that the dead will not see come to fruition. This does not mean that the enterprise is illegitimate. It’s tragic, but not necessarily, illegitimate.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I think that the underlying theory of politics in BOTNS and the UTNS is pretty reasonable. In UTNS, Severian is told that he is in fact a monster because of the suffering he dishes out. This is what governments do. They deal out death and misfortune to some people so that others can survive and flourish. Now, at the end of BOTNS, Severian-as-Autarch makes moves to reduce the amount of death and suffering his regime will dish out, but he doesn’t deny this is what rulers do. I suspect that Severian is able to discern this reality because of his time in the Torturer’s Guild.He takes the tragedy of the human condition as a given and works from there.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marty Light</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Nice essay - preach on!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970006838997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Phil and Metz are products of their time, alas. They think Severian is pretty dim and his insights into human nature “nonsense”. I strongly disagree with their assessment of his character. His trajectory is one of overcoming devotion to an artificial and arbitrary justice to serving a higher, if at times inscrutable one. Some Women scheme, lie, and betray to gain their heart’s desires, too, in fiction and in life, as do some men.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Jesse Faulk</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> You sound like a jerk.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155970217113997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970217113997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Tim Swanson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> No reason for incivility...</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970281958997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Nathan Carson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/jesse.faulk.7?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Jesse Faulk</span></a> you can disagree on any points but let’s please not get into name calling.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Everyone here has different backgrounds and opinions but we all have a common enthusiasm for Wolfe’s writings.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155970310518997&av=671137533">9</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970310518997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Every time I hear someone complain that women just like jerks I say - it isn’t nice guys who finish last; it’s boring ones. Now I have to reassess the value of my advice ... ;)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970437668997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sean Ferguson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> .......what are you talking about</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970446423997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> (It’s a joke. About five years ago I went through a period of my life when I felt like Rudolf Valentino - stalkers, hanger-ons, etc. etc.- some could not be deterred. I’m short, not wealthy. I jumped to the conclusion it was because I just wasn’t a bore anymore as I was throughout my 20s. Jesse has offered a more compelling reason for the overwhelming attention.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155970472713997&av=671137533">6</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970472713997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sean Ferguson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> uh.........ok</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155970526353997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155970526353997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Jenny Lovern</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> lol i love valentino! and your comment </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; font-family: "Apple Color Emoji"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">😆</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155971087093997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155971087093997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Tim Hanson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'm in agreement with Marc on this one. I like the podcast but I think they have a terrible downer on Severian. He (like them) is a product of his time. If he is a misogynist, should we be surprised? He is raised in an all male environment in a pseudo-medieval time. The Torturers response to his burgeoning lust/love for Thecla is to buy him a prostitute. Not the best role models by modern standards.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155971251238997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155971251238997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> "Jesse Faulk You sound like a jerk." lol I doubt Mr. Aramini would disagree with that. Alexander the Great was also a jerk.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970008943997&reply_comment_id=10155975835933997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">11h</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sean Ferguson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I enjoyed earlier episodes of AS a lot but disagree so strongly with their reading of Severian and BOTNS that I’ve had to stop listening. They seem to see him as a fraud and sociopath who’s also very stupid. That’s not the book or character I know at all, though I certainly think he’s a deeply flawed man who does some terrible things. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Having said all of that— I’m a leftist, I'm probably further left than Phil and Metz, and I'm certainly further left than Wolfe himself (who I love) and many folks in Wolfe fandom, and I’d appreciate if some of the more conservative folks would give me a break from their ideas about how they think leftists and “SJWs” are dumbasses who can’t read properly. (Not saying that the OP is doing this, but it’s an attitude I’ve seen on the subreddit when AS comes up... I remember some bizarre theory someone came up with on the subreddit about how “leftists don’t believe in hierarchy and this means they believe literary interpretation is a free-for-all grab-bag where you can just make up whatever you like” or whatever, just nonsense, not how me or any of my left-wing friends engage with art.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970227593997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Wolfe speaks a lot to how shame and humiliation affect people. Every character he has contrived to create is thereafter REMEMBERED... to the point that you're almost ashamed that you hadn't as involved an interest in them, even as there were cues to consider them... as real persons. He particularly remembers when his characters may or may not have adversely treated people, even if squaring of accounts, is made too much the forefront concern rather than giving life to those you may have squelched. If people are linking him in with Jordan Peterson, there's ample in him that is really ripe to be recovered within... quite frankly, even within the forefront of feminism right now, that is, with <a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/metoo?hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;">#</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">MeToo</span></a>.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970227593997&reply_comment_id=10155971247228997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sean Ferguson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It’s extremely depressing to me to hear people linking Wolfe with Jordan Peterson, who is an idiot, a charlatan, a sociopath, and above all else just a nasty hateful little turd, and if this group is going to become a Peterson/incel/MRA subreddit I’ll probably just unfollow. (Gonna turn off my notifications for this thread. I’ve had enough fights about that weird disturbed Peterson freak already and it’s incredibly depressing to me and I don’t want to ruin Wolfe for myself by having them linked together in my mind)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155971737818997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970227593997&reply_comment_id=10155971737818997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Wilson Dolaghan</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I guess you won't see this, but I think I share your perspective, certainly, at least, on Peterson. I've also been pretty disappointed by some points of view expressed here. That said, with the exception of a few explosive situations, I think civility is pretty well maintained in the group. Certainly I've heard things here that I felt were sexist (Though I think Wolfe's sexism is overblown through some progressives' knee jerk reactions). A lot of times though, I've enjoyed the insights of people I've previously had vehement disagreements with, and vice versa. I feel it's worth keeping your cool and hearing people in the group out. I mean, personally, since I know there are many people in the world who believe things I find objectionable, I'm not sure why I should be shocked or dismayed when I encounter them, like I didn't know they existed. Then again, this is just about the only message board I frequent, so maybe it's a question of fatigue.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'm not going to read their take as I believe I'm in the midst of establishing my own, but re-reading the series now I'm struck by how many things Severian puts forth concerning his take on the relations between men and women, that no one would ever put into a novel these days for it making the author himself seem misogynistic. There is a certain sincerity concerning Severian, and Wolfe, a certain remarkable exposure, that I take seriously... even if one ultimately gauges their take problematic, especially for often passing as simply "wisdom." There are times when he talks about human nature where he seems to be foreclosing people, not because ultimately, true, but because it's more restive to be able to classify and contain rather than acknowledge a world of ever-change, requiring constant re-appraisal. There are times in the text when Severian does this, or others do so -- too early foreclosing the world, that is -- and it is challenged -- and I really appreciate these instances. But there are others where it doesn't go challenged... where it looks like Severian has just got people made, figured out... usually to their dis-credit, and where we are baited to not question him for the bad reason of it feeling good to account ourselves like him -- wiser than everyone else.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Severian for example argues for the virtue in duelling, for it squelches the practice of murder, and unlike as with murder, leaves the commonwealth with the most fit. This is left to be understood as wisdom; not to question. But when he thinks of the torturer's guild, he has clearly come to think of it as a place which squelches the production of the fit, by keeping "honest, integrity, and intelligence" down, when surely before he had appraised it in a way similar to the way duelling was excused... taking mal-attention away from the autarch and thus letting him function, and whatnot. What the Severian I wish existed would have done, would have been in the text to give hints that that sort of reappraisal he administers to the unquestionable truth of the necessity of the torturer's guild, could apply to many of his other assessments of the necessity of this and that as well. If that Severian was the one we encountered, then when for example the autarch in the end talks 'bout the impossibility of democracy, of how everything had been tried... about the firm necessity of closing the roads and thus ceasing all possibility of societal change, we would at least of been more in mind -- through recognition that these authoritative assessments that can sound so much like wisdom, delivered by those that have lent to be understood as wise, can nevertheless end up being wrong -- are still up for challenge. How can it be possible that Severian's tale shows up AN ANGEL as being ignorant, as being wrong, yet leaves some characters WITH an immunity to refutation/disbelief? Yet, unfortunately, it does.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155970816093997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Wilson Dolaghan</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Maybe Wolfe is relying on readers having an expectation that all characters and all statements are suspect, as in reality. I think good writers treat their own beliefs, when presented in the text, as suspect. Wolfe isn't Heinlein. I don't feel his goal is to preach, but to explore, and to present his perspective for the reader's review. Anyway, can't characters be messy, just like real people? People let us down. It's what they're best at. My two cents anyway.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155972153948997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wilson.dolaghan?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Wilson Dolaghan</span></a> I would hope that was Wolfe's expectation. It certainly sounds like it was your own experience, which I appreciate hearing. Personally, though, whenever Severian starts philosophizing about the nature of men and women... about humankind, and it makes them seem somewhat reduced... essentially fallen or minor in importance in the large scale of things, I think he succeeds in leveraging something immature in the readers' minds that has us simply agree with him without thoroughly testing his thesis. This is one of the reason he requires critics who don't only point out the marvellous things he does in such ample supply, but ways in which he can stunt, hold back -- like Disira upon Able -- the reader, ironically by making them feel -- end goal already reached.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155972579603997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Wilson Dolaghan</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Fair point. I think you're right in terms of how his observation minimize humans and focus on their insignificance, though not always. I think in part it's a necessary salve for his conscience, given what he ultimately does, and, possibly, the conscience of anyone who would rather not "waste" time on the problem of pain, as Wolfe has hinted at in interviews. So I think this is one philosophical thread that can probably be traced back to Wolfe. I'm both sympathetic and in disagreement with his view. I think that on a universal scale, humans are certainly insignificant, but the idea of humans as being insignificant in a universe with an intelligent creator is a very disturbing idea that says some unflattering things about whatever deity that would be. I think his attempts at apologetics of this view, or something like it, are interesting though. Since I'm an agnostic whose a baby-step away from being full athiest, obviously he hasn't converted me, but I find his worldview infinitely more plausible than the Christianity I was raised with. In some ways it resembles Roman Stoicism: refusing to be ruled by emotions (in this case, those resulting from the pain of yourself or others) and submission to your purpose elected by a higher, inconceivable power. Very anti-humanist, and though I'm not a humanist either, I suspect my issues with this philosophy would be similar to those humanists would raise. If Marc notices this though, I'm sure he'll be able to point out the ways I'm bulldozing over the complexities of Wolfe's case here.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155974246993997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Wilson Dolaghan</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I like that despite the fact that Severian isn't on my list of characters I'd like to have as a roommate or get lunch with, he has moments of trancsendant kindness and clarity that are so touching and genuine. I think these get lost sometimes in readings that treat everything he says and does as sociopathically disingenuous. But also, his very real flaws and vices are lost in readings that are overly kind to him, as you mentioned.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155974253808997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Wilson Dolaghan I mention Dorcas's kind insistence that Severian considers how people use metaphors to trap you away from your potential freedom; from uncovering, not who your real self is, but the self... you're more or less comfortable with, and which suits their own preferences/current needs. I think Severian's tale could have used even more helpful, therapeutic, challenging backtalk of this kind. The idea that we are but small things in a vast universe is presented a number of times in the text, and as far as I can remember, not really challenged. If so, in the spirit of Dorcas... when she was at her best, it is for the critic to point out that we can gravitate to ways of systemizing the world that more suits some mal-need of ours we need to grow out of than reality, and that it is most important it be pointed out when the view passes as unassailable. So the critic would view the text, note how many times Severian employs the word "small" and "little," in conjunction with an atmosphere where pity and sympathy from a great outside source would seem due to care to arrive, for the particular patheticness of the thing, and leave us at least more in mind to question if Severian's estimation of the importance of people in the universe is but the fruition of some deeply seeded preference for self-understanding that he applies to himself again and again and again through the text. He uses it, so that he can imagine something great outside himself would find him worth noting on that would have ignored him if he held himself greater, like a sick boy finally being attended to by his otherwise pre-occupied mom. That way, you finally get what you've always craved, more of the supply you fell short of, from your mother's bequeathing breast: </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“In our kitchen I lifted a cup of stolen wine to my lips—and found it had become a breast running with warm milk. It was my mother's breast then, and I could hardly contain my elation (which might have wiped the memory away) at having reached back at last to her, after so many fruitless attempts. My arms sought to clasp her, and I would, if only I could, have lifted my eyes to look into her face. My mother certainly, for the children the torturers take know no breasts.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">People are talking about which short story collection they most appreciate of Wolfe's. I said Endangered Species, but when I think of Severian, that boy in the collection "Island of Dr. Death" who's left alone to the drug-addled mother -- the story that contains them -- always comes to mind. I think of that story through reading the Knight series as well.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155974643273997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">23h</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/wilson.dolaghan?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Wilson Dolaghan</span></a> For me it'd be a pleasure to have lunch with him. He's very perspicacious and attentive.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155970766023997&reply_comment_id=10155974652368997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">23h</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Jenny Lovern</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I must agree with many comments here. I enjoyed listening to the podcast in the beginning (way back) because I was a brand new Wolfe fan and loved hearing their enthusiasm for his work. But I’ve come to strongly disagree with a lot of their ‘theories’, and find I’m enjoying his writing more without all the speculation. I do think they go overboard. I stopped listening after they discussed Little Severian’s death, as if he were being used as a decoy and Sev felt no real sadness. I believe that was the take of either Phil or Metz (a suggested theory). To me that was ridiculous, as the compassion in Severian had grown leaps and bounds at that point, however troubled a being he was. Of course this is based on my own interpretation, but I feel one of the reasons why Wolfe is so careful and choosy with his prose is so that revelations (like Sev actually showing deep emotion) are that much more powerful. If I’m meant to be deceived by it, then Severian (or Wolfe) has succeeded, and I’ll let him have that victory.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">If AS focused more on the brilliance of how Wolfe writes, rather than hyper focus on the ‘why’ of each thing a character says and does, Id listen again.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155969972383997_10155971080883997&av=671137533">6</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155971080883997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Eric Bourland</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> >>>>If I’m meant to be deceived by it, then Severian (or Wolfe) has succeeded, and I’ll let him have that victory.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Yes.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155971080883997&reply_comment_id=10155972032253997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Mike Beizer Jr.</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I don't like them because they challenge my (limited) personal interpretation of something i've made my own (in my head), and that scares me. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">In all seriousness, in like... 99% of the outlandish theories they dish out, they call it just that, a theory. Wolfe already has a very limited fandom, lets appreciate the resources we have, nobody is asking you to change your mind about something. God forbid we speculate on FICTION from a remarkably tight-lipped author.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Lighten up, and stop bringing up modern politics. That is like trying to look at ancient Egypt through the lens of our modern political climate. Nobody cares which particular flavor of crap you subscribe to.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Talking about their approach is talking about Wolfe. Criticizing my approach, or Borski’s, or the Gene Wolfe Literary Podcast, or old Urth list posts, is also discussing Wolfe. If people want to discuss the books in the manner they find most appealing, isn’t that the goal? - all of these commentators on Wolfe are doing so through a lens which includes their “particular flavor of crap” - and this very much includes Phil and Metz. So their framing approach, too, is subject to fair discussion. And discussion involves talking about fruitful ways to approach the material. So are you saying we shouldn’t talk about potential flaws to approaches or seek refined ones? In that case I have about twenty years of Urth list responses to go back and respond, hey, come on guys, appreciate the limited resource you have!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155971097323997&reply_comment_id=10155972439093997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Severian is from the beginning... someone who would let someone he loved die -- Thecla -- out of spiteful revenge of her belittling his masculinity, his manhood. He feels unresistingly baited into admiring Jolenta, and wants to physically attack her for it. He almost permits a gang-rape of Casdoe, for her calculated spurning of him. I may be in error, but I don't believe this is Jordan Peterson' territory. Rather more those who'd explain him as not ultimately about delineating essential human truths, but about managing women in a time of rising women so that men who are fearful of women, gain unearned advantage over them... there is room to explore all his/Severian's ruminations about the nature of men and women, as about securing a malign tyrant's hold on them, if they end up being widely believed. What a conquest it is to not longer be subject to people, for knowing their essential nature better than they do themselves. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Your take on our not being interested in seeing people as using others to achieve goals, certainly doesn't fit with how historians and sociologists have typically understood people. There is a prejudice in these disciplines... as there has been traditionally in psychology as well, to understand this as the human norm -- people always come out seeming debased; of greed or whatnot -- and so in making this statement one leverages authority... built-in assumptions of what is true, but which may not ultimately BE true, to make a case.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Severian does a lot of comparisons between the women he knows, but in favouring Dorcas for being his best companion, it's difficult to see him as using her as an instrument towards a goal of children or status or whatnot. One wouldn't get points for seeing this choosing as such; only detraction for seeming to confine truly high reasons for valuing another within categorization that carries associations of the crude; of underlying debasement. Wolfe lends the autarch that kind of wisdom you're partaking of when you talk about generals and war-outcomes, so what you're saying could have been mouthed out of him, out of the autarch. Melito's story lends credit to your estimation of women, in that his tale is about helping cover for his current poor self-presentation as a provider. And Jolenta tries to dissuade Jonas in his interest in her, for not being an appropriate provider. But overall, saying women are looking for good-providers means for a very selective reading of Severian's tale, as Severian delineates Jolanta as in fact choosing Dr. Talus, precisely because he refuses her... for the fact that he replicates for her a treatment, a trauma, a primary abandonment, she finds herself driven to try and settle (this would be the trauma-study inflected reading of her motivation). Dorcas chooses a ghost of a man, who can't provide a whit, because, apparently, when she's finally in a settled man-wife relationship with Severian, a powerful provider at that point in the text, she feels driven to flee the existential freedom of a new life, and Severian himself isn't enough therapeutic weight to prompt her towards it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155971222108997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Wilson Dolaghan</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'm not sure I understand how he lets Thecla die out of spite. If you don't mind explaining, I'd genuinely like to hear it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155971222108997&reply_comment_id=10155972160083997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">2d</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Wilson Dolaghan Not at all. Just before he leads her to the revolutionary for torture and eventual death, he hears her summarize him as "really rather a sweet boy in his way.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">“Were I such a hero as we had read of together in old romances, I would have released her that very evening, overpowering or drugging the brothers on watch. I was not, and I possessed no drugs and no weapon more formidable than a knife taken from the kitchen.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">And if the truth is to be known, between my inmost being and the desperate attempt there stood the words I had heard that morning - the morning after my elevation. The Chatelaine Thecla had said I was "rather a sweet boy," and some already mature part of me knew that even if I succeeded against all odds, I would still be rather a sweet boy. At the time I thought it mattered. ”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I believe he has offered us enough to conclude that Thecla here is guilty of the crime of not seeing, not recognizing, that to Severian at this point what matters so much to him is his ascending the steps towards manhood. He notes this about himself about him many times before he meets Thecla... about how he was no longer boyish enough to do such and such... about how he was clearly entering terrain where he was due to experience more responsibility, more authority, and was increasingly being accepted as such -- as someone hardly anymore a boy -- by his masters. Then, here, Thecla, his first love, assesses him, in sum, as just a sweet harmless boy... she cages him into perennial infancy, and effectively rewrites much of the reason for his probably being proud of his ostensibly grownup relationship with her. He senses she would never be disproven in her belief, and so leaves her to her fate, even as he could really have saved her. Interestingly, when he refers to this later on in the text, he doesn't reference the "sweet boy" reason for not interfering, but rather his own still-maintained inability to imagine life outside the guild. Also as the text develops, counter to how he presents himself initially, he gives ground for understanding himself at this point as not so much someone who was quickly transcending boyhood, but rather someone who remains fundamentally undeveloped and immature. Fortunately, this is not as present here (though it is actually a bit... "at the time I thought it mattered), for it makes his spite towards her, understandable. This was callous and cruel of her; very self-elevating, at his expense. What else to expect of, after all, a prisoner? Well... exultants are portrayed as seeing all surroundings outside the very finest, as impressing badly upon them -- witness Thea and her assessment of the Vodalus's bandit "fortress" -- with the reality of whether or not they in fact do, not really being their concern, but really only that they can be adroitly used for purposes of one's own grandiose self-elevation. Thecla uses Severian, betrays the true assessment of her relationship with him -- which she later reveals as very, very objectively important to him -- to give herself a temporary grandiose lifting of herself above her surroundings. In effect, here she's Blanche Dubois, and he is here doing his own Stanley Kowalski-akin, spiteful revenge, for her bettering himself over him; for her, in a mood indifferent to his feelings, degrading him, to "elevate" herself.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> “She lay down at once upon the cushions, where the uplifted petals gave her perfect complexion shade. It made me think of Agia, laughing in the sun as we descended the Adamnian Steps and boasting of the wide-brimmed hat she would wear next year. Agia had no feature that was not inferior to Jolenta's; she had been hardly taller than Dorcas, with hips over-wide and breasts that would have seemed meager beside Jolenta's overflowing plenitude; her long, brown eyes and high cheekbones were more expressive of shrewdness and determination than passion and surrender. Yet Agia had engendered a healthy rut in me. Her laughter, when it came, was often tinged with spite; but it was real laughter. She had sweated with her heat; Jolenta's desire was no more than the desire to be desired, so that I wished, not to comfort her loneliness as I had wished to comfort Valeria's, nor to find expression for an aching love like the love I had felt for Thecla, nor to protect her as I wished to protect Dorcas; but to shame and punish her, to destroy her self-possession, to fill her eyes with tears and tear her hair as one burns the hair of corpses to torment the ghosts that have fled them. She had boasted that she made tribadists of women. She came near to making an algophilist of me.”</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">In my judgment, at the moment where Thecla denounces/degrades Severian as but a sweet boy when he is almostly badly honestly trying to sustain himself as a budding, emerging man, she is very much in Jolenta mode... someone who can, in the process of supporting their own self-possession, shame the self-account of others so much that they be rendered into experiencing pleasure at their pain. That this is something THEY do to others -- "SHE came near to making an algophilist of me" -- that THEY are responsible for, is where Wolfe steps into highly politically incorrect territory, even as it leaves Severian, even as it leaves MEN, the opposite of the fundamental self-control of patriarchal lore. This very much, for me, is where Wolfe gets at how much what we say and can do which can reduce people... is never to be blown off, but can corrupt a life forever. It's where he's in-sync with current assessments of the effects of abuse and humiliation.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">· </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155969972383997/?comment_id=10155971222108997&reply_comment_id=10155972665903997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1d</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> They really go out of there way to misinterpret the "All love that which they destroy" section. I always took it as women tame men, destroy the more violent, lustful aspects of masculinity in order that they can better serve civilization. The Commonwealth has been waging a war with the rest of the world forever, against enemies that have access to alien technology. Of course gender roles wouldn't conform to our current "cosmopolitan" norms. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Judging Wolfe's personal views based on the alien worlds he writes about is foolish. Same rules apply, anyone that writes any fiction set in Rome or ancient China or Japan should also be called a misogynistic.</span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-49461839801283888462018-11-30T05:25:00.001-08:002018-11-30T05:32:41.383-08:00Thread on what questions to ask Wolfe, at the Gene Wolfe facebook appreciation site<div style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; background-color: white; color: #294387; font-family: Garamond; font-size: 19px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">
<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100017701442391&fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARDGXjcSiUlsH7aYxWCvESyL7_uZP2GWyL7RiIHblDJ3R8GTvXD9Q2DQnmN_Jg55FMwN-au1rvip7ZjY&hc_ref=ARSp73qdD6hgZzPENJiEpTE_iI8qO5vg86VE3wZ86sc6avuXRxTZ9YQvzQ1KnXSxdWE&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group"><b>Andrew Busam</b></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/">November 21 at 8:06 AM<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #4e545d;"></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Hello all! I'm excited to say that myself and <a href="https://www.facebook.com/busboom1?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdK-R-R&eid=ARA9Ac9wyMINDAgQvHlducqKtd5KPZYlprUFddfQhO2q-gDTeTkBefU2U84XDs9c13uEchfuhnO1Npew&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">David B. Busboom</span></a> have been tapped to interview Gene Wolfe at Chambanacon this Saturday. It's a last minute substitution, so we're putting together interview content as best we can.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">I'd like to throw it out to the wider group: does anyone have any burning questions or a particular area on which they'd like Mr. Wolfe to comment?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Be forewarned, he's notoriously cagey about his puzzles. </span><span style="font-kerning: none; vertical-align: -4.0px;"><img alt="pastedGraphic.png" src="blob:https://www.blogger.com/080fd00f-1c0a-4abd-abf8-9caac9794a8c" /></span><span style="font-kerning: none;">:)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Comments</b></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Yorgos Nls</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Please share the interview when you have it. Thanks!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958248873997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958248873997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Absolutely! I'll make it available.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958252538997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Jake Gerdes</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Let him know his fans need at least a short story conclusion to Latro's adventures!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958297178997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958297178997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'd certainly like that!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958350708997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958350708997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958297178997&reply_comment_id=10155958350708997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sergey Lenkov</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100017701442391&fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Andrew Busam</span></a> Yes, Andrew, yes. Please ask him.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958421568997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958421568997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958297178997&reply_comment_id=10155958421568997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Gregorio Montejo</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Is Wolfe working on another novel?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958336743997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> You can always ask about how his writing process has changed if at all and getting back into it after his surgery - rumor is he just finished one and submitted it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958339198997&av=671137533">5</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958339198997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Not a true question but I have found his late novels to be quite dependent upon extratextual allusions. How important is a shared canon of literary and historical reference to Wolfe as a writer? Strains of allusiveness have always been present, but they felt more like “Easter eggs” than central narrative conceits in the past.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958345503997&av=671137533">6</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958345503997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2323%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> That's interesting. I've picked up on the winks to other authors, myths, etc, but I've not encountered an instance I felt was a central narrative conceit. Can you give me an example?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958345503997&reply_comment_id=10155958349273997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> You can’t solve sorcerer’s house without knowing the story of Apollonius and the Lamia of Corinth, who can make a house appear to suck the life force from her victims, servants and all. There is a Corinthian coin and goldwurm, who kills “ambrosius” (referring to Apollonius, of course), and many other allusions to the story, but it is never mentioned by name. If you don’t know it, you can’t solve it.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958353533997&av=671137533">5</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958345503997&reply_comment_id=10155958353533997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Aha, I'm tracking.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958345503997&reply_comment_id=10155958360598997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Bruce Chrumka</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Thank, Marc!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958635968997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958345503997&reply_comment_id=10155958635968997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Cecilia Michel Lopez</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> he used to advise aspiring writers to learn to write short stories first & only then try novels. You might ask him if he still advises that, since there are now so few venues to publish short stories, esp .of folks who don't have novels out or name recognition.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958349658997&av=671137533">5</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2322%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'm not very familiar with the publishing markets. Can you elaborate on what's going on/what changed there that makes it hard to publish short stories?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958353793997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Before Dune there were almost no non-serialized long novels - even foundation, more than human, etc were fix ups from novellas and short stories published in magazines. Even pre-new wave there was a healthy short story market. Now authors are going right into novels because magazines are drying up and the big fat epic fantasy trend is in full swing. It makes for amateurish novels, of course.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958390543997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Even Dune had a shorter form and was serialized, but it led to the viability of sf books.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958391263997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> That is a distinct change in the path authors can take. I can see how that would be difficult. Are there any sources online that publish short stories that have any gravitas?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958405623997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>António Pedro Marques</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It's worse, now everything has to be not even trilogies but pentalogies or more.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958411598997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958411598997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Cecilia Michel Lopez</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Others may disagree, but what I see in the U.S. is that there are few venues for short stories, including online, and they soon come to be dominated by the same names - who are often novelists already. Big themed collections of short stories (which I often read) are also dominated by the short stories of novelists.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958425203997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958425203997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2323%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>David A Stockhoff</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It's still obviously good advice. Just not necessarily good CAREER advice. :(</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958442583997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2322%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>David A Stockhoff</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> In that context, I wonder if he has an opinion on the formalized "Young Adult" market. It also did not exist 30 years ago. It actually seems somewhat friendly to newish writers; it favors short novels and does not require opuses, but does seem to require serialization. Is it overly rigid? Can it be broken into? Some of it is good fun (the Hilda series is an example), but surely there are challenges.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958349658997&reply_comment_id=10155958448713997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2321%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Levente Borsai</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Hi, if you may, I have a question. Ask him that while he created (and operated) his fantasy worlds didn't he feel sometimes a strong desire to remain in these worlds? To become a part of them instead of being their external creator/inventor? To wake up in his artwork?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958396708997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2321%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); color: #16191f;"> I like it!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958396708997&reply_comment_id=10155958400088997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sergey Lenkov</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Wil there be any continuation to Soldier of Sidon or it's last novel of this series?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958403728997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958403728997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958403728997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2320%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Benjamin Dyson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I would like to hear him speak about what he is reading these days and does he have any books that he returns to and rereads on a regular basis</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958417123997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958417123997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2319%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I know he's commented in previous interviews that his eyesight has deteriorated, and can't read for very long periods of time any more. I wonder if he does anything with audiobooks?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958420023997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958417123997&reply_comment_id=10155958420023997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> He should listen to Land Across on audio book if he hasn’t and see what he thinks ... wow that narrator does the voices so differently. I am not an audiobook person at all but I gave that one a try to see if anything else would jump out at me and was fascinated by the verbal gymnastics of the reader.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958442148997&av=671137533">5</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958417123997&reply_comment_id=10155958442148997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> Absolutely! That was a work I listen to on audiobook over the course of a few long car trips, and I was similarly impressed.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958417123997&reply_comment_id=10155958444518997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Simon Ounsworth</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> ... but never listen to that old RNIB talking books version of 5HoC that's floating around on Youtube. Good lord </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; font-family: "Apple Color Emoji"; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;">😑</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958540113997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958417123997&reply_comment_id=10155958540113997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'd be interested to hear what he thinks of House of Leaves or The Kingkiller Cronicles.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958417123997&reply_comment_id=10155958543263997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>António Pedro Marques</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Now and then I meet intellectually curious young readers who read a lot and aren't afraid of large books but don't know better than 'realistic'/'literalistic' literature, because they haven't had the right exposure. I'm very much against recommending things to others, but what novel would he think such readers might benefit from?</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> What kind of literature should they be introduced to? I'm a little hung up on 'realistic/literalistic'. Are you recommending more fantastic, abstract, symbolic?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958421058997&reply_comment_id=10155958428003997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>António Pedro Marques</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> By which novel I meant which novel of his. But it could be someone else's, something that would free them from the what-you-see-is-all-there-could-ever-be mindset.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958421058997&reply_comment_id=10155958466253997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Ah, gotcha.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Lee Pretorius</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Who is his favourite character in the Shannara TV Series?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958437188997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958437188997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2317%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Hehe, really? I'm aware that he's something of a cinephile, but is he a fan of this show?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958437188997&reply_comment_id=10155958442303997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Lee Pretorius</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100017701442391&fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Andrew Busam</span></a> not bloody likely. I wonder if he likes GOT? Also I wish I could hear him talk about any of the past masters of SF - Herbert, Asimov, etc.?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958437188997&reply_comment_id=10155958525423997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Rod Mcdow</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I’ve read in other interviews about his meticulous rewrites. I have not heard much about how he approaches the early stages of a project. It would be interesting to hear him describe how he goes from an idea to a first draft.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958490813997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958490813997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2316%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I've often wondered that myself.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958490813997&reply_comment_id=10155958537503997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Ask him, "What has Urth to do with Jerusalem?"</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958512933997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2315%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> What's the story behind that?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958512933997&reply_comment_id=10155958514788997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It's a question Tertullian famously asked "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?" meaning what has Greek philosophy to do with Jewish revelation or mysticism. Or to put it more broadly what does reason have to do with faith? I suggest it because I think it would probably be a question he'd never heard before and would be a question which would provide a lot of space for him to answer.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958534503997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958534503997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958512933997&reply_comment_id=10155958534503997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Dexter Van Zile</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Pepe</span></a> Brilliant, just brilliant! Very funny. But also a darn good question.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958716078997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958716078997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958512933997&reply_comment_id=10155958716078997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); color: #16191f;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Dexter Van Zile</span></a> Haha thanks.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Simon Ounsworth</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Is there a novel or story he tried to write and regrets giving up on? And if so, what can he tell us about it?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958526873997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958526873997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2314%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I also recently watched an interview with Jorge Luis Borges and he said that he liked C.S. Lewis so much and dislikes Tolkien so much that to compare Tolkien to Lewis was "blasphemy". That might be fun to ask him about haha</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2313%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Cecilia Michel Lopez</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> context on that? Because I'm wondering if Borges was thinking particularly of the savage take-down of academia in "That Hideous Strength"</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958585183997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155958585183997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I think he was speaking generally. He said that he found Tolkien incredibly boring and that he found Lewis to be a much better theologian. I'll post the video in a minute.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155958590698997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/cecilia.michellopez?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Cecilia Michel Lopez</span></a> The context was what he thought about "serious" writers writing things for children or for a more popular audience like Kipling or Chesterton and how that effects their standing within the literary arena. Here is the video, the relevant part starts at 30:02. You might need to put on the closed captioning.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none; text-decoration: underline;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxzQSheCkc&fbclid=IwAR3hR3xAn3KcNRDlZI67_wseC5PPYYNVia1ORFxAKKWqYSpaEyre3gnrLH8"><b>Firing Line with William F. Buckley Jr.: Borges: South America's Titan</b><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; color: #16191f;"><b></b></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155958613068997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> That's a neat interview. Slight correction: the comparison is to Lewis Carroll.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155958677713997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Oh your right. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis are so often compaired I must have assumed that's what he was talking about. That makes it even more of a wild statement.</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155958681933997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Allan Anderson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Also interesting due to Wolfe's deep delight in Tolkien.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155958731093997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2323%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>António Pedro Marques</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It's far less surprising when the comparison is to Lewis Carroll.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958540798997&reply_comment_id=10155961233803997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2322%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marty Light</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Ask if his Plant Engineering magazine writings are collected or available anywhere? And if he would consider writing an autobiography about his wartime experience, meeting and falling in love with his wife, conversion to Catholicism, his perspective on aging.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958552378997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958552378997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2312%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> There's a African proverb that runs something like "When an old man dies, a library burns". </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">It would certainly be nice to have copies of some of this collection.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958552378997&reply_comment_id=10155958557153997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Bruce Chrumka</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> 'Letters Home' is a rare book by GW that is a chronicle of his experiences in Korea. A wonderful collection.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958683543997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958552378997&reply_comment_id=10155958683543997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> How does he think Saul Bellow and John Updike influenced his work?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958569153997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> ( I don’t think Wolfe has much respect or time for mainstream literary stories like that. Proust, Borges, c a smith, dickens, Chesterton, Vance .... bellow and Updike might not even be on his radar.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958569153997&reply_comment_id=10155958606738997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Wolfe does like Hemingway ...</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958569153997&reply_comment_id=10155958615953997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> When asked, he specifically referenced these two as those who’ve influenced him. Many others—yes. But these as well.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958569153997&reply_comment_id=10155958665383997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> If people presume this about him... more reason to ask. Bellow and Updike were the definitive mainstream literary writers of their time.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958569153997&reply_comment_id=10155958681648997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Bruce Chrumka</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Yep, he especially dislikes Borges, Chesterton and Vance! And don't get him started on Kipling! :0)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958569153997&reply_comment_id=10155958685948997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Frater Julianus</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> What does he think of the persistent attitude in academia that science fiction, fantasy, and other genres are not serious literature? What does he think is behind this attitude and why does it still persist?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958603918997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958603918997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Yorgos Nls</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Good one. I feel that there is an answer (well, almost) to your question in the prologue of endangered species</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155958617878997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Andrew Busam</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/yorgos.stasinoulias.3?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Yorgos Nls</span></a> I've not read that. What does he say?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155958700088997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Yorgos Nls</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> It's not a direct answer to the above mentioned question but I feel that if you ask him that he will answer similar to this prologue. He is telling why he is writing the stories and what he wants to communicate with the reader. He is saying that he doesn't write for the critic or for the academic, he writes only for the reader. It's a beautiful intro to the book really.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958705663997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155958705663997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> He emphasizes the place of the reader and the fact that the academy insists only dead writers can be good - “well, I’m not good yet!” (i think this has changed a little with the academy glomming onto sometimes objectively shitty contemporary writers for some tendentious agenda.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958706513997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155958706513997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> That'll produce the answer concerning academia that apparently most of us want to hear. Academia CAN'T BE RIGHT to slight genre -- this is the only thing we want to hear. But if academia ever took to Wolfe in earnest and with respect, we'd show a decent reason FOR slighting genre, in feeling sort of outraged he was no longer simply... OURS. We can be Dr. Talos's, people who manipulate for our own profit, in trapping Wolfe by lending ourselves as those, only, who could ever really appreciate him. There might be better friends out there for him, but we don't want him to know they exist... and so deign the dumb things he has to say about academia, about critics, as wisdom and wisdom only. Connections with readers, the importance of it, is big in literary academia right now -- affect studies, post-critique critique. They are in the same super category of best readers as us now, valuing connections like therapists do their alliances with patients they care about profoundly... but I suspect, for us, this is something not for cheer, but actually an inconvenience. We can't grant Wolfe his right -- whether he's eager to exercise it or not -- to permeate wherever he could actually be received. Harlan Ellision wanted this for him. So too Le Guin. Have wings! We should hope for this too, but try instead to make it so even though admittedly he has only ever found himself amongst US, there's actually no reason to roam, for we're the best of all audiences already for him. Wolfe will go down with us as his ever-loyal friends, and even though he'll only have had one or two scholars thoroughly study his works -- making him about the only great author with this misfortune -- they'd have nailed him so good there was no loss here. Another first for mankind.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959558483997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155959558483997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I would be stoked if Wolfe were given the recognition he deserved . I’ve loved him since I was a child and force him on every class I teach. Next week my 400 level mythology class is reading Soldier in the Mist. I’m a fringe pseudo-academic though, meaning I’ve spent more time in other jobs than in front of the classroom. I’m also pretty traditional in my approach to teaching and consider myself a fan and teacher more than a true academic. And we are the best of audiences for him ;)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959666053997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(42, 95, 222); color: #2a5fde;"><b>Like</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155959666053997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2323%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Marc Aramini Le Guin, Octavia Butler, Stephenson... are being accepted by the younger generation of literary critics as in no way different than your Atwoods or Ishiguros -- that is, no different than those who don't define themselves as genre but only dip into it once in a while. This is a change, a wonderful, welcome one, because previously if you didn't do that bit where you make clear you're not actually usually genre when you ostensibly are doing genre, it risked ruining reception of your book and tarnishing your reputation overall. In a sense, what I'm arguing is that amongst the younger gen. of critics I see writing in top notch literary journals like "Novel: forum on fiction," we're seeing some who are in a sense in line with Wolfe when he admirably and believably said he didn't care if he got relegated to the racks... that reputation didn't matter over-much to him, for he cared too much for the importance of writing, period. It's a great time for Wolfe to get that better introduction, for they don't know of him; I never hear him referenced. My sense of the way in is writing about how Wolfe addresses what pain and shame does to you... Severian, the torturer, is incredibly admirable in how honest he can with himself in how if someone spurns/shames him, he can want to see them beat up and destroyed -- by his own hands, preferably. This is not something he sees as commending himself, but clearly to be addressed -- the shamers he considers, are women. He fits in well, this torturer, in our current era where being able to acknowledge there's a beast in you, a beast that arises not only due to something universal... men just being men, women just being women, but because you yourself were abused and neglected/traumatized, is seen as hugely heroic. He does other courageous and very helpful things as well, by so often showing how often he has thought about the people he has engaged with in his life. They are never just into his life and forgotten --though sometimes you get baited into thinking this -- never just swords to be thrown away like filth. With Eata, he even has the courage to admit that if there had been only the slightest change of circumstance, his own journey would have been Eata's -- HE would have been the star of show, and his own... maybe Eata's. </span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">There's a blurb of Urth of the New Sun which reads, "forges what amounts to a new kind of science fiction. Wolfe's principal purpose is to explore the relationships between morals, feelings and actions..." If this is his purpose, what best describes what he is doing, he fits very well in with what many contemporary writers are up to as part of this "sincerity" movement, a movement that includes maybe some of the writers you don't value highly but who are overall hugely respected -- Franzen, David Foster Wallace. Again, I think it could be time for him to be rediscovered, if introduced with respect for the legit values and interests of our audience.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155960177678997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155960177678997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2322%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I value David Foster Wallace greatly; Infinite Jest is SF. Franzen on the other hand ... it is his mind I don’t respect. Everything, from my point of view, winds up banal In his hands as with no other literary figure I can name. Here’s a family of jerks; let’s have a family dinner to maybe correct it. Or not. (If I ever become successful I will never “punch down” on individual artists in that way and will probably stop saying negative things in general about public figures trying to make a living. George RR Martin implying my book on Wolfe must not be good if Tor didn’t want to publish it was the equivalent of nuking that Sennalese island for no reason.)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155960202973997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(42, 95, 222); color: #2a5fde;"><b>Like</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155960202973997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2321%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> In my sense, valuing your own contributions, Marc, will be easier when study of Wolfe gets broadened and dispersed, even if this means to people within academia you might not respect much... those with, quote-unquote, agendas. It's not fair to you this current sense of your being his primary acolyte... it's too easy to read you as the village that worships but that might eventually eat and destroy Severian when he's Apu Punchau. I have to fight this sense of you off when reading your work to justly see the you that has applied a fine mind very deeply into Wolfe's works. George RR Martin has been welcomed into the land of the literarri -- Atwood gushes over his work. My sense of him is that this has more value to him, this acknowledgement, than it should (Severian has a bit of a problem with this too, by the by... it's always important that he, when slighted, eventually gets noticed... by someone of more discerning judgment than the original slighter), and that he might be motivated now to perform himself almost as if he was not a creature of genre but a literary star... hyping the reputation of established presses, talking of people's efforts as trash in slush piles, etc. Have faith with what I said I see happening with some of the younger generation of critics... I think that if what you have done is of considerable value, an audience will be there eventually that is emotionally evolved enough to receive it, regardless of if an older generation, desperate for their own claim on genteel status, has made every effort to keep TOR in its new "cleaned up" form as a venerable publishing company, in part by talking the same ol' cruel and dismissive literary talk to those that still carry their old taint of longing and isolation and need.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155960233613997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958603918997&reply_comment_id=10155960233613997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2320%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>David A Stockhoff</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> What does he think of the beef between Nicki Minaj and Cardi B?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958651528997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958651528997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958651528997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Bruce Chrumka</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> There was a question posed a while ago about the witches, and how they were affiliated with the Seekers of Truth and Penitence, if at all, what their order was about, etc.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958689158997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958689158997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Dexter Van Zile</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> What does Gene Wolfe think of Severian as a writer?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958713088997&av=671137533">4</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958713088997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Frater Julianus</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> How about another Holly Hollander book?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958713778997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958713778997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> You could ask him what he thought of the alzabo in the Annihilation movie.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958733748997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958733748997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Ronald Pelle</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> ha! my thought exactly when I saw the movie....</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155958830593997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958733748997&reply_comment_id=10155958830593997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Stuart Howard</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/ronald.pelle.7?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Ronald Pelle</span></a> I thought of that as well.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155960693678997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155958733748997&reply_comment_id=10155960693678997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> If he's ever read any Pynchon.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959235318997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> In my long correspondence with him he seemed to be very well read in short stories and not that well read in contemporary long novels - or even the Russian beasts of the 19th century. His sensibilities are so innately pre-modern it’s hard for me to imagine him plopping down Gravity’s Rainbow and reading about cropophagia and musical ditties with octopi and V-2 missiles guided by erections. I wonder if I ever asked him that- I should read through our correspondence again someday. He loved Tristram Shandy, as do I.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959341533997&av=671137533">4</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959341533997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Lee Pretorius</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/marc.aramini?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Marc Aramini</span></a> maybe we should ask him about Steve Coogan’s hot chestnut scene in ‘A Cock and Bull Story’?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959391748997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> His writing is very existential though, don't you think?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959412763997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Well I guess I should say what I've read of it is existential</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959415618997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Marc Aramini</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Wolfe existential? Well ... I think the attempts of his characters to create their own meaning is doomed because that meaning must accord with universal principles and structures. Certainly there are existential themes in his work but I have always thought of them as slightly critical of those subjective assignations of meaning when we ourselves are shaped via pre-existing forces, whether they be symbolic or cultural or divine.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959671478997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2324%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I only ask because Free Live Free is compared to Pynchon.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959675863997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2323%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Charles Gillingham</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Also the back of Exodus compares it to GR.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959679603997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2322%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Severian goes on an existential journey. He basically starts out as Dostoevsky's Underground Man and works his way through his existential problems over the course of the five books of the series. Number Five is basically a Nietzsche in bad need of a pharmakon like Kierkegaard or The Brothers Karamazov. In a broad sense, any work that addresses the question of personal identity can be describes as existential. I agree that Wolfe is critical of the potency preceding act idea of (most) existentialism, especially that of Sartre. But one doesn't have to subscribe to nonsense like that to make existentialist investigations in ones writing. Discovering the truth of oneself and ones position in the world is an existentialist project.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Like</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Reply</span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155959703683997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2321%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a> · Edited</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>António Pedro Marques</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> That's a much too broad definition of existentialism imo.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155961238453997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2320%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); color: #16191f;"> What is?</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959235318997&reply_comment_id=10155961435178997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2319%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Nathan Carson</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> </span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(235, 95, 76); color: #eb5f4c;"><b>Congrats</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> on this gig! He's marvelous to talk to as long as you don't try to get him to explain his stories.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959396953997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959396953997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959396953997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Jenny Lovern</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'd like to know what movies made a particular impression on him in his childhood.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959444588997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959444588997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959444588997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Bruce Chrumka</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> Cagey about his puzzles? I once asked him if he considered 'The Fifth Head of Cerberus' a novel or a novella collection. Still trying to parse his answer!</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155959463973997&av=671137533">3</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959463973997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> You should ask him a bunch of questions as if you were on a first date with him and didn't know anything about him.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959501053997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> The more I think about this the awesomer I think it would be.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155959501053997&reply_comment_id=10155959706563997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Write a reply...</span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Stuart Howard</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> I'd like to know if (as I suspect) he is an admirer of Le Guin. Also, please get him talking about Jack Vance.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155960698323997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>James Pepe</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> He and Le Guin were good friends.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155960900883997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155960900883997&av=671137533">1</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155960698323997&reply_comment_id=10155960900883997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2328%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Stuart Howard</b></span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(22, 25, 31); color: #16191f;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">James Pepe</span></a> Ah! Thank you.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155960698323997&reply_comment_id=10155960949838997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2327%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Sergey Lenkov</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/stuarthoward?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Stuart Howard</span></a> But he wasn't admirer - he critisized her untopical novels as Always Coming Home.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155960698323997&reply_comment_id=10155962308763997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2326%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">1w</span></a></span></div>
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<span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;"><b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston</b></span><span style="font-kerning: none;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/sergey.lenkov.18?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(41, 67, 135); color: #294387;">Sergey Lenkov</span></a> Too strong!... he listed LeGuin as one of the writers who influenced him. So a genuine admirer, with qualifications... which would be her own take on him.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155968675658997&av=671137533"><i></i></a></span><br /></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155958244933997_10155968675658997&av=671137533">2</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Manage</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;">Like</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · </span><span style="font-kerning: none;">Reply</span><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(126, 129, 138); color: #7e818a;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155958244933997/?comment_id=10155960698323997&reply_comment_id=10155968675658997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2325%22%7D"><span style="-webkit-font-kerning: none; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(78, 84, 93); color: #4e545d;">3d</span></a></span></div>
Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-70449444743167043962018-11-30T05:16:00.001-08:002018-11-30T05:16:32.830-08:00Was Agia hunting for the gem?, at the Gene Wolfe facebook appreciation site<div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; vertical-align: middle;">
<b><span style="color: #616770; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARCtkWqmZ3UUjSBjD_03T_4fiJQrd6VmNDLCvnkHwQqiqZoL7GPJxG9vrZNeRAON41PgPXsspL-tH9jU&hc_ref=ARRkxDWchf3ftQDDWD0cuDvKgLzCE9BDCV6aIc3gb0rggJiRPO7nN4TUKxHAKfYfyDc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a></span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155970742788997/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #616770; text-decoration: none;">November 27 at 9:08 AM</span></a></span><span style="color: #616770; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">Has anyone ever settled the matter as to whether Agia was gunning to make use of Severian to obtain the gem from the Pelerines? It just seems really unlikely. She seems someone of so much sense, of mercantile calculation... and already had underway a ruse which looked safe to secure her and her brother a sword worth a villa (no more lentils, ever!). Plus, in the collision with the Pelerines' tent, one of the horses dies, and she herself suffers a leg injury -- and so presumab</span><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">ly could have died herself. Was she THAT ambitious? If so, it is perhaps no surprise that rather than being someone who possessed "the hopeless courage of the poor," as Severian settles her as being, just someone representative of a class of people, she was someone, like Thecla, like Severian, bound and due to sit on the throne -- which she mostly does, in becoming the next Vodalus, a success story of success stories.</span><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">Comments<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/cecilia.michellopez?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ecilia Michel Lopez" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/cecilia.michellopez?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Cecilia Michel Lopez</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I think the parallel question is whether the One Ring was actually lost by Gollum and accidentally picked up by Bilbo, or the Ring abandoned him to work its way to the surface and its master. It doesn't really matter what Agia intended. The Pelerines were perfectly chill about the Claw vanishing, which is entirely in keeping with Christian tradition for relics. The pop version is the Holy Grail relocating. For the scholarly version, read Geary's "Furta Sacra" which details the medieval belief that the theft of genuine relics was only possible with the cooperation of the saint & the will of God.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155970742788997/?comment_id=10155970882623997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1026" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> To me, it very much matters what Agia intended. I had come to know her; I spent time with her — she interests me. Leave it to the pelerines to gauge her of no consequence. Leave that barbarity of assessment... to them. Thanks, though, for the grail reference, which is interesting, however much it nevertheless performs the crime of having us take flight from a person we are interested in.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155970742788997/?comment_id=10155970882623997&reply_comment_id=10155970902528997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/s1ni5t3r?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="im Hanson" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1027" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/s1ni5t3r?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Tim Hanson</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> It seems very unlikely that she planned the whole from the beginning. There' would be too many variables. This thread has got me wondering though. I'd assumed it was an opportunistic crime. However if she dropped the Claw into Severian's sabertache as the text suggests that would be putting the whole Avern Challenge scam at risk. The most likely outcome would be Sevarian being detained rather than them escaping with the Claw. Hmm...</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155970742788997/?comment_id=10155970882623997&reply_comment_id=10155971225728997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1028" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/s1ni5t3r?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Tim Hanson</span></a> great stuff.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/steve.petersson?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="teve Petersson" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1030" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/steve.petersson?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Steve Petersson</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I think she indulged in a crime of opportunity, and had not planned it in advance.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1031" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Who else is like that? Jonas, Severian... melito... man-ape who approached Severian. Also, goose who becomes gray salt goose.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155970742788997/?comment_id=10155970904553997&reply_comment_id=10155970957078997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-35628347585212669262018-11-30T05:14:00.002-08:002018-11-30T05:14:44.322-08:00Discussion over why Gurloes is embarrassed, at the Gene Wolfe facebook appreciation site<div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; vertical-align: middle;">
<b><span style="color: #616770; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARC7VEPvHSnda5P7Qb2Zp2cdvDuJM5VW_193Ud0uHdx0FPC9qqynnbELQIZ2l73NnJN-z1n0DaiW17Um&hc_ref=ARTAAfuVym_brpnhQ9Z6vWY2PHaC1RaP1MMs65xClSMTlAsZbllvUh2Qua57BtIhXqQ&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><br /></span><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></a></span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #616770; text-decoration: none;">November 25 at 12:52 PM</span></a></span><span style="color: #616770; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">"Gurloes shook his head. 'We have no say in the matter, Chatelaine. Nor do you. We carry out the sentences that are delivered to us, doing no more than we are told, and no less, and making no changes.' Embarrassed, he cleared his throat." (81)<br />What do you think Gurloes is embarrassed about in this scene?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #606770; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Cambria;">https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997&av=671137533</span></a><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="text-decoration: none;">33</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">Comments<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="lhaji Dada" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Alhaji Dada</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> That Gurloes is one of Vodalus' spy like Thechla. But also because you would expect Thecla to know this about the torturers.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1026" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Are they both spies?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155966972958997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="lhaji Dada" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1027" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Alhaji Dada</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Yes. Thecla is the in House Absolute. Gurloes is the spy within the citadel. Part of Severian/Thecla's animus for Gurloes (e.g. the charge that he is a coward/.hypocrite) stems from that.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155966993038997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1028" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> You mean she is there when Sev is there?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155966998298997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="lhaji Dada" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1029" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/AlhajiAAA?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Alhaji Dada</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Maybe you need to finish the books.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155967067923997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1030" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I've read BotNS multiple times. Urth only once.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155967075093997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1031" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> If it is revealed that they are both spies I just don't remember it.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155967083723997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/Foodveyor?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="hilip Bonner" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1032" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/Foodveyor?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Philip Bonner</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> It is not.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #8d949e; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155967217558997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #777d88; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155967217558997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #777d88; text-decoration: none;">1</span><span style="color: #777d88; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966885088997&reply_comment_id=10155967217558997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1033" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Write a reply...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015259594867&fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="unyi Dn" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1034" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015259594867&fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Sunyi Dn</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I assumed he was embarrassed that he could not help her the way she wished</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #8d949e; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966887123997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #777d88; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966887123997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #777d88; text-decoration: none;">4</span><span style="color: #777d88; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966887123997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/apmarques?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ntónio Pedro Marques" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1035" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/apmarques?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">António Pedro Marques</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Rather simplistically, to be speaking to an attractive woman in such a situation. But that's my original pedestrian reading.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #8d949e; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966900138997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #777d88; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966900138997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #777d88; text-decoration: none;">1</span><span style="color: #777d88; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966900138997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="asily Ingogly" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1036" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/vasily.ingogly?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Vasily Ingogly</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I took it as embarrassment at her asking for a choice.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #8d949e; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966918983997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #777d88; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966918983997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #777d88; text-decoration: none;">1</span><span style="color: #777d88; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966918983997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.pretorius.35?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ee Pretorius" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1037" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.pretorius.35?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Lee Pretorius</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> You ask the good questions and make the good observations.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966968848997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1038" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Haha thanks.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966968848997&reply_comment_id=10155966983723997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1039" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Write a reply...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1040" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I think there are at least three options and they need not be mutually exclusive. First, he is embarrassed because he has basically admitted that, even though he has achieved the highest rank in his chosen profession, he still has no real agency in thecarrying out of it, he is ultimately slavish. Second, he is embarrassed because he knows what hes saying isn't true and is embarrassed in spite of himself because he knows he is spouting bullshit just to tow the line. Third, it's a bit of dramatic irony because of what Sev is about to do.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #8d949e; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966978308997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #777d88; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155966978308997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #777d88; text-decoration: none;">5</span><span style="color: #777d88; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155966978308997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/thewakeupdreaming?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ichael DeQuasisane" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1041" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/thewakeupdreaming?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Michael DeQuasisane</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Sev mentions that Gurloes is very good, politically. I think he is not truly embarassed, but is using an embarassed tone to deflect potential argument.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">“Maam, I’d really like to help you, I would. I really would. But the boss... well the boss makes the rules.” </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">The feigned embarassment takes the focus off of the Guild and puts it onto the Autarch (whose mighty bones hold up all of the Urth).</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #8d949e; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155967262158997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #777d88; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155966866343997_10155967262158997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #777d88; text-decoration: none;">1</span><span style="color: #777d88; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967262158997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/fridsma?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="teve Fridsma" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1042" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/fridsma?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Steve Fridsma</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thewakeupdreaming?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Michael DeQuasisane</span></a> that is how I've read it.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967262158997&reply_comment_id=10155970190863997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1043" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">Write a reply...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1044" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Yeah, he could be feigning a deferential tone. We know he has been employing little tricks like that to grease the entire interaction, talking to her about the various mechanisms in order to keep her mind (and, perhaps, his) off of what is about to happen. Maybe Sev is just reading it wrong and takes for embarrassment what is actually sadness, pity, or remorse for what he is going to have to do to her.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967355108997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1045" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> It is a very detached take on what he does that conflates every torturer as one and the same in regards to their "carrying out sentences," that most people would buy, but which he uses to in fact hide the fact, the qualifier, that sometimes there are in fact options... that sometimes there is wiggle-room -- and that he himself is on the look out for them and uses them whenever he can. The particular way he uses them in regards to a rape he is required to administer, makes him seem repugnant to Severian, for he is forced to use tools and drugs to make the "abuse" happen, despite his bulk and strength. Embarrassment might indicate he is temporarily made aware that he doesn't live up to the expectations every torturer ostensibly is committed to/represents: a common reliable standard.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967461833997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1046" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> He has also admitted that he doesn't "simply carry out sentences," like a stoic, like a robot, but that he can LIKE doing so... not neutral, rather, there are passions involved; one could potentially go about them eagerly, with relish -- he expects Severian... with his youth and all, would be eager to administer the abuse. When discussing an order to administer "abuse" to one of the clients, Gurloes admits to liking/prefering small women. In this discussion of administered rape, Severian too admits to sexual excitement (he is repulsed only by the consideration that Gurloes can't fulfill his duties without aids -- drugs and whatnot -- out of what appears to be fear, and maybe possibly concerns about his potency... he guesses Severian would be thinking this his central concern); he isn't at the point where he can sympathize with clients. There is some similarity here, perhaps, between the "stoic" torturers who just carry out their duties, doing no more than they are told, and no less, and the the leach at the end of Autarch, who also denatures everything he does with his "client" as on the level, as just neutral and innocuous, but which Severian gauges is in fact prurient: sadistic relish, knowing perversion, hidden through the dodge of commonplace assumptions. </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">“The old man pinched his cheek. "He'll recover quickly—in time to warm my bed tonight. At his age they always do. Nay, it's not what you think. I only sleep beside him because the night-breath of the young acts as a restorative to those of my years. Youth, you see, is a disease, and we may hope to catch a mild case. How stands your wound?"</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">There was nothing—not even an admission, which might have been rooted in some perverse desire to maintain an appearance of potency</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">—that could have convinced me so completely as his denial.” </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;">Both Gurloes and the leach hide something they know is suspect about themselves, behind "truths" they know people have been trained to assume as unquestionably valid; which people feel the social pressure to agree as universally valid. For Gurloes, this might give rise to embarrassment -- at least some credit to him. As Severian says, he's a complex man -- both sides, kind of guy -- constantly requited to pretending he's more simple than he is. He is making that just-same presentation of himself to her, and maybe this too is part of the embarrassment.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967461833997&reply_comment_id=10155968656413997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; font-family: Times; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.mckinnis.1?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="avid McKinnis" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1048" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.mckinnis.1?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">David McKinnis</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> We don't know that Gurloes is embarrassed. We only know what Severian perceived. The question should be why is Severian seeing embarrassment?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967560923997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">4d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="avid A Stockhoff" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1049" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">David A Stockhoff</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> I think he knows Gurloes pretty well.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967560923997&reply_comment_id=10155968718323997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ames Pepe" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1050" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/james.pepe.14?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">James Pepe</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Or, perhaps, the question shouldn't even be why is Sev seeing embarrassment but why is Sev reporting embarrassment?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155966866343997/?comment_id=10155967560923997&reply_comment_id=10155968818558997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1051" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1052" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"> Another argument for saying he is embarrassed here because he himself routinely is on the lookout for exemptions-to-the-codified-rule, that more or less break the spirit of a thing but that he can justify; of him pretending to be a simple follower, someone who obeys, but actually being one to in fact take the lawyerly way out as frequently as opportunity allows: “By ancient custom, we must not use the steps (although I have seen Master Gurloes assist his vault to the scaffold with his sword, in the court before the Bell Tower)."</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-28742641746871711782018-11-30T05:10:00.001-08:002018-11-30T05:10:47.388-08:00Discussion over the fate of Jolenta, at the Gene Wolfe facebook appreciation site<div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;">
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<b><span style="color: #616770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARBLSz7Zt23DgfDJJ0a2DsOTbp5vTHqNVW6G578VTgNiFqbBRtLFXjyU5-8nUw_B00xDBiqqmEOgGIGq&hc_ref=ARRKlS-84ubpsHiHQ3Sq_4xJ46ZYqqmyJbyAy5KIxi4S55rZr5b1Ver81JlVTTuuEF0&dti=2230578996&hc_location=group" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a></span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #616770; text-decoration: none;">November 28 at 10:36 AM</span></a></span><span style="color: #616770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;">Why does Severian make almost no effort to develop sustained empathy for Jolenta -- no interest in her roots, what made her who she was -- even as she features so much in the first part of the narrative? Her fate at the end is one sustained gross happenstance after another... Severian has repeated sex with her while she lay half drugged, an act he argues later he imagines she wanted -- even as he admits it could appear to some, bald "rape" -- but which certainly followed his</span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> discussion of her as someone whom he could hate so much it invited his desire to destroy her; Severian abandons her to Dr. Talus, who had threatened to kill her if she insisted on clinging to him; Baldanders robs her of her money; she's sucked at by blood bats, and, finally, left at death revealed discombobulated of all beauty... a hunk of junk, like that the Saltus citizens keep heaped away from their village for it ruining their preferred sense of themselves? If Book of the New Sun was ever made into a movie, no actress could agree to play her part without being susceptible to being accused of participating in someone else's sadistic fantasy... of being a masochist -- like Jennifer Lawrence was, for appearing in Aranofsky's "Mother!" Quite frankly, even the descriptions of her unrefusable beauty, make her seem a bit gross and clownish... thighs so wide they chaff against one another; breasts as big as heads. In fact, when Severian imagines that we would be surprised that he would admit desire for that wife of Abaia... I thought, well, no -- for just ten pages or so back you were delineating Jolenta as some kind of massively inflated, monstrous body... and so actually they kind of blend together.</span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #606770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155972839083997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span lang="EN-US">https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155972839083997&av=671137533</span></a><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ufi/reaction/profile/browser/?ft_ent_identifier=10155972839083997&av=671137533" style="color: blue;"><span style="text-decoration: none;">88</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015259594867&fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="unyi Dn" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015259594867&fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Sunyi Dn</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> because he's not a very nice person, in a nutshell... :p I mean, there's a bit more to it than that, but Jolenta always embodied to me a kind of iconic figure of female struggle. She's taken advantage of, "rewarded" by allowing herself to be exploited, and discarded when her consumable value is used up. I thought she was very relatable in that sense. EDIT: Whether Wolfe intended her to be... who knows.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972851843997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1026" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Thecla he identifies twice... or I think twice, and certainly once, as actually rather cruel, and a neat slit throat for her, is somewhat nicer than that long dance of humiliation Jolenta has visited upon her for her "sins," her fundamental not-niceness.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;">Our sense of her is not only as someone who has been exploited, though, or even, as she was at first, someone sensibly canny enough to look to her advantage... the waitress she was. Rather it's of someone who doesn't do much work... doesn't do much anything, while people worship and revolve around her, made helpless to make any actual demand of her or to protect their own self-respect while in her midst. She's made sort of grotesque yet somehow irresistible in the way that that actress was in an Evil Guest. I respect the sense you had of her... which must surely carry in the reading experience. But she was for me almost someone at the end you could take grim humour over, rather than regret as a casualty of consumer society (which, again, is a very interesting and true enough encapsulation of how the story of her is presented -- worth thinking on). </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;">One does note, though, that the one character throughout who has unbroken love for the Autarch, who believes in him, his goodness, without question, is Jolenta -- and that it comes across as somehow... a bit worthy of her. Fits the stereotype Wolfe adheres to of the poor being righteous for believing in things that "the enlightened," only sneer over.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972851843997&reply_comment_id=10155972874163997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1027" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Wolfe is not inscrutable... we can get at his intentions.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972851843997&reply_comment_id=10155972900458997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Write a reply...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ike Bennewitz" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1029" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Mike Bennewitz</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> I think it speaks to Wolfe’s opinion on what he seems to see as a woman’s artifice. To GW and Sev, she is someone low and maybe unworthy who is built and propped up to beauty and value through cold calculated artifice.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ike Bennewitz" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1030" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Mike Bennewitz</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Most of the enemies severian fights are metaphrical examples of people rejecting God or god’s gifts. ( Zooanthropes, Sorcerers, Baldanders, Typhon ) Jolenta can be seen to tie into that obliquely as she’s using faked feminine allure. Of course I don’t personally blame Jolenta for any of that and see her as a tragic figure. Most of the women in the book are tragic figures come to think of it, save maybe Apheta.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972861698997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="avid A Stockhoff" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1031" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">David A Stockhoff</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> There is a long tradition of denigrating the "artifice" of women (sometimes characterized as devious and deceptive or worse). Billy Shakespeare wrote some plays squarely in that tradition, but looking at it from both sides. So Wolfe is addressing/examining the tradition, with his picaresque and self-centered narrative, as well employing the thing itself. What does it say of us that we force a woman to fake herself before we look at her? and then use her like an object anyway.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972861903997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ike Bennewitz" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1032" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Mike Bennewitz</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">David A Stockhoff</span></a> great point. I know I picked up some disdain for it along the way without realizing it. I don’t blame women for it though.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972866008997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1033" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Mike Bennewitz... and yet she stands out, for all the others go out either rather quickly, or with their pride intact (arguably this is true for the sorcerer and for Baldanders). She alone takes on the burden of a repeated heaping-on of humiliation... and I think for reason for this, we might want to explore not so much Wolfe's conscious designs, his able-to-express opinions on things, but unconscious revenge. This isn't about undermining Wolfe, but about making bringing him within range of Severian, who worries too over such things... whether consciously or unconsciously moved in what he does.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972886208997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1034" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> And speaking of artifice -- didn't Bishop describe Book of the New Sun as if reading through heaps of gems and jewels? You come out of reading it, certainly, feeling you've had a heady education as to what kind of fabric, what kind of tailoring, is worth your time, and which isn't.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972889688997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="avid A Stockhoff" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1035" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">David A Stockhoff</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/bennewitz?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Mike Bennewitz</span></a> The funny thing is that, as far as I can tell, women do it for one another, whether it's competition or something else. Men tend to be secondary beneficiaries, or else they don't care at all how women ornament themselves. ;)</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972890138997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jenny.lovern.101?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="enny Lovern" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1036" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jenny.lovern.101?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Jenny Lovern</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> i think “cold calculated artifice” is spot-on.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972906993997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1037" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> What does Severian do over her rapidly decaying personhood -- naturally, he philosophizes... on the nature of love and desire... "love and desire are said to be no more than cousins... but it is not really true--," followed eventually by his declaration of love for her. It could almost by Python, or the Coen brothers recent take on westerns.... strumming a sweet song of remorse, over corpses of dead bodies.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972913538997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="avid A Stockhoff" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1038" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">David A Stockhoff</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> exactly. Severian is sometimes hilarious.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155972953818997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1039" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> I'll allow one last observation. Something of genuine interest in her does begin to develop as they go along the path to the mountains, towards Thrax. We are brought into a concern over her, even if it had to brought to bear by first establishing "ourselves" as being in an empowered position over her. We begin a more entwined, profound involvement with her... and even over details of how she was a construct of a thousand and one adjustments of body, even over details of her AS A BODY, which suggests an observer who had grown up watching his mother dress herself up many, many times, Jolenta is being granted by us a status of being worthy of notice. And then it gets cut off, by the stark, titanic authority of the Cumean, who almost scolds attention away from those whom we were trying to attach respect to. Then after the spell of her involvement is gone, Jolenta is left absent "our" being with her during her final moments, and we try a desperate, pathetic recompense gesture of respect, but unlike as with the just-brought-back Apu-Panchau, we can't recover what had passed. Something of the same happens with little Severian. Something of the fact of Typhon's authority, of how Severian is made to feel before him, has us shrink away our willingness to defend our previous great interest in little Severian as still worth our standing up for... they, these titanic, bullying presences, take them away from us, as we scurry on. They both spank away our ability to stand up for the exposure in our admitting sensitive-attunement with the weak and vulnerable.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155972855063997&reply_comment_id=10155973014923997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1040" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Write a reply...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="icholas Jost" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1041" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Because Jolenta is a monstrous whore who made a diabolical deal? Such that she has become a caricature of herself? He talks about her character frequently.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1042" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> She took an out from a miserable fate, like Severian himself did.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973033718997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1043" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Is there any account of her sexually servicing multiple men? If so, I didn't hear of it. What I heard is that, yes, she has character flaws... she's demanding -- something Severian gauges as surely not deserving that much punishment; she takes delight from others being delighted in her. I heard she's... a narcissist; someone who uses others captured attention to fill up her own absent sense of self. But so too Severian who presents himself so impressively... so theatrically, to Vodalus when he sits in his forest throne? One gets called on it, the other... doesn't?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973044378997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="icholas Jost" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1044" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Severian doesn't sell himself that short _and_ still suffers for it complete with getting to watch images of himself die. Jolenta dies by her own artifice.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973051823997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1045" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></a> The waitress shouldn't have taken the doctor up on his offer? I don't see how the blame is with her... more unfair ways society made it so that if you're not rich, there are only a couple ways in which the disadvantaged can climb a notch in class... and so thereby get away from a miserable and frightening, hand-to-mouth existence. It's not just survival instincts, admittedly; she WANTS attention -- mastery over other people... but when Severian stops being stuck on simply disliking her, it seems we are granted enough of her as a person of worth, to imagine Severian more wanting to help her work past her flaws, as Dorcas and Severian have been trying to entertain with one another.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973076138997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="icholas Jost" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1046" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> The mere fact that you say, "he took an out from a miserable fate, like Severian himself did," shows your inability to compare the troubles of being a waitress with the troubles of being a State Torturer. If we swapped sex on Jolenta and made it a him with Jolens the good looking rake we wouldn't even be having this conversation.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973085033997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1047" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Nicholas Jost In that society, being a waitress would seem a much worse, much more precarious fate, than being a torturer. Severian himself was on a guaranteed path of authority over other people... toward privilege in a way. In his being outed for having earned retribution, he's granted a level of mastery and authority and income, which is baby boomerish. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you and you actually agree.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973088678997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="icholas Jost" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1048" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> You are really tempting me to drop into full sarcasm. How does being under threat of dying by torture if you show mercy compare to serving drinks again? And how would we not view it differently if this was Jolens?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973092468997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1049" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Nicholas Jost There is no threat of dying by torture for the torturers, as almost none experience that level of involvement with "clients" as Severian finally manages. All there is is guaranteed road of increase of status -- captain, journeyman, master. The waitress... a person of no status, someone who is for a life of being seem due for such degradations of work as you offer, is in a poorer position than the shopkeeper, whose life of scapeing by for lentils, is delineated for us by Agia. Her precarious position, feels almost millenialish to Severian's baby boomerish life ahead of him. All my sympathy to her.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973096828997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="icholas Jost" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1050" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> You keep saying "poorer" like it is a mantra of death. Poor does not mean "more dangerous".</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973167743997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1051" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></a>the fact that she is a waitress, allows people to superstitiously imagine they are immune to her fate, for they can recollect that they are optimates, or guildsmen...people of status, and so ostensibly immune to likewise. The person in the lowest position, ends up subject to the cruelest fate, and is ready to be casually assumed as having earned her fate. If lots of people read her as having earned her fate, then I would assume they would today be the people who would assume that precariously setup women, earn their fate when society exploits and takes advantage of them; has them carry responsibility, guilt, over other people’s crimes. And if Wolfe overall is a factor in promoting the abandonment of the vulnerable, the suffering, it is for the critic to point this out. Borski I think argued that waitresses in Wolfe supplement their income through prostitution. If valid, we know just how credible it is to imagine their fated to be at risk of excused abuse. If people link them together regardless, the waitress is going to be doing much more than serving drinks; she’ll serve as a deposit where society can go... to seem justified in torturing women, through use of degrading language, through use of abusive handling Whore, is a horrible, offensive term. It justifies degradations of certain women, in retaliation for slights inflicted on men that they cannot without guilt retaliate against directly.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973280803997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="exter Van Zile" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1052" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Dexter Van Zile</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></a> I don't think she died by her own artifice, but from the artifice of Talos.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973371733997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="exter Van Zile" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1053" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Dexter Van Zile</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> I think <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> has made a good case for sympathy for Jolenta. I don't think it's reasonable to portray her as the sole author of her own suffering. I also think that at as Severian matures during the course of his journey, he becomes more morally ... competent. (Trying to find a better phrase, but that's what I got.) I think as the story progresses, Severian becomes more sympathetic to the suffering of people around him. He does try to use the Claw on Jolenta and seems to be unhappy at the suffering she endures before dying.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973383823997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="exter Van Zile" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1054" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Dexter Van Zile</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Here is what Severian wrote at the end of The Claw of the Conciliator: "By lightning, I saw the dead face of the waitress who had served Dr. Talos, Baldanders, and me in the café in Nessus. It had been washed clean of beauty. In the final reckoning there is only love, only that divinity. That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin." This strikes me as a passage that underscores Severian's increasing maturity.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973388108997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="exter Van Zile" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1055" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Dexter Van Zile</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> I think the text supports the notion that Severian regrets the contempt he exhibited toward Jolenta that <a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a> has highlighted in his post. There is a passage in UTNS that talks about how he should have been more loyal to the women in his life. (And I'm not sure he mentions Jolenta! He lists the women he should have been more loyal to by name. The fact is, Severian is no innocent and is an exemplar only because he evolves as a person. I look at the people in my life in a manner similar to what Severian goes through in UTNS and wonder if they would fight on behalf of humanity in light of how I have treated them. In our relations with people we damage and are damaged. Severian seems to take responsibility for both sides of the coin as his story progresses.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973396983997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="avid A Stockhoff" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1056" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/david.a.stockhoff?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">David A Stockhoff</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dexter.vanzile?fref=gc&dti=2230578996&hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Dexter Van Zile</span></a> I love that phrase "washed clean" used in that context. As though false beauty is dirt.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973443823997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="icholas Jost" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1057" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.jost?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Nicholas Jost</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> She makes herself what she is by inviting the evil in. She is washed clean since the ultimate penalty is death and now she goes to her final resting place whatever that is and is free of mortal judgement. There can only be love because we need mercy as much as Jolenta now does.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;">Again you guys wouldn't even be mentioning this if it was Jolens. And I have no where said he was an innocent (do look above). I have answered the OP question on why there isn't sustained sympathy for her.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973016363997&reply_comment_id=10155973855023997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/cecilia.michellopez?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="ecilia Michel Lopez" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1059" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/cecilia.michellopez?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Cecilia Michel Lopez</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> for once, I'm going to say NS is being over-read. I've always taken Jolenta's fate to be a fairly brutal indictment of the plastic surgery industry, which got to be mainstream in Houston and still was 15 years ago when I lived there. While I lived there, it was not unknown for yuppy parents to give a daughter breast enhancement as a high school graduation gift. <a href="https://www.chron.com/local/history/innovators-inventions/article/Local-invention-made-Houston-international-hub-9122371.php?fbclid=IwAR0h_FAgkg1z7vEs-VYqYtI-LzMNdpR6a9Aj55qAf_-4i8rKMN8BbKc98CE" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">https://www.chron.com/.../Local-invention-made-Houston...</span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Manage</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.chron.com%2Flocal%2Fhistory%2Finnovators-inventions%2Farticle%2FLocal-invention-made-Houston-international-hub-9122371.php%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2-jMfoCcmFIroSODxFWzkdeWw54yUPQW7mzpLxnGSJ2bO-39jUuLd2epU&h=AT1FyJ0tSoKUaTx920CDFFwRdjiSeXfiMzwLADP1m2oZ8G0DuBHbSC7tj19XSHyTa1STswI08TL4Xi05aCqmqMu33We92SLhEantQV9xzEDWCAKhGA_RZUd6ZySKxIvhE5BJ2Vsm5A" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #1d2129;">Invention made Houston global hub for breast implants</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.chron.com/local/history/innovators-inventions/article/Local-invention-made-Houston-international-hub-9122371.php?fbclid=IwAR2fjFhr8oC1A5ooECuH5lU2U-dKZwk59eoszovb6ixHvCvpFmmOt0xy7PE" style="color: blue;"><span lang="EN-US">https://www.chron.com/local/history/innovators-inventions/article/Local-invention-made-Houston-international-hub-9122371.php?fbclid=IwAR2fjFhr8oC1A5ooECuH5lU2U-dKZwk59eoszovb6ixHvCvpFmmOt0xy7PE</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973437028997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">1d</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1060" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Yet the text argues more for its legitimacy -- what happens to you if you have high cheekbones: you're taken to be of the bloodline of an exultant. It helps you glide your way through the world A LOT BETTER than otherwise.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973437028997&reply_comment_id=10155974656728997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">23h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1061" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Maybe that's what Wolfe should have done to make it easier to not encapsulate the transformation of jolenta that way -- not had her become Jane Mansfield or whomever, but more Natalie Portman, a slim, high-cheekboned beauty. That way we'd be struck to read her transformation in a way that more justifies it, exults her, which I think warranted given that Wolfe has constructed a world that wasn't akin to mid 18th-century britain, where borders between classes were uncertain, but regency Britain, where social borders had solidified again, and at guard against any subsequent trespass... remember the armiger who knows the exact limits where the luxury of his garb would trespass outside his class. Wolfe loves America, and any world where social mixing is made difficult because external markers of class have too much legitimacy, and where they can't readily be mimicked, would deserve subversion of Jolenta's kind, it would seem.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;">Indeed, Wolfe himself is not exactly Able or Severian, and surely uses fiction to enhance himself rather grossly.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;">EDIT: Actually, thinking more on Jolenta... what happens to her, bears some similarity as to what happens to Able. Both become distinctively American emblems of beauty and power, bulk, big breasts, that "go beyond" European estimations of such... that went beyond European estimations of it when America had pushed past Europe in world power, post WW2. She's the Marilyn Monroe that entranced the world; he's the Hollywood hunk that did the same.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/permalink/10155972839083997/?comment_id=10155973437028997&reply_comment_id=10155974671058997&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">21h</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/2230578996/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/charles.gillingham.16?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="harles Gillingham" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1063" width="26" /></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/charles.gillingham.16?fref=gc&dti=2230578996" style="color: blue;"><b><span style="color: #365899;">Charles Gillingham</span></b></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"> Threads like this, and the OP, are starting to get equally annoying and tiring.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 17pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-71986248573536827822018-11-15T04:06:00.001-08:002018-11-15T04:06:44.403-08:00Clio's Psyche, after conference, #3<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoNormalTable" style="color: black; width: 910px;"><tbody>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">At the conference, I really enjoyed reading a couple of the books that were available, and it's prompted me to not only write a new one but to put two of my own to your attention. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Main one is Draining the Amazon's Swamp, a lengthy exploration of my studies through the history of English literature. It's available</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">here at Amazon</span></u>. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The second is Essays on the Lord of the Rings, which is a James F. Mastersonian exploration of the saga that tries to argue it more an anti-adventure than an adventure. This is 60 pages; much shorter.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">It's available here. </span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Thanks much, Patrick, I'm glad you made this announcement. Some topic in the interface between psychohistory and literary criticism would make for a very interesting paper at the IPA conference next year, and you can bring display copies of your book for the book table. --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">It is nice that the psychohistroy conference prompted you to write another book. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Also, please say a little more about each of your books to all of us.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I am tempted to say that both books are about how Patrick attends to what he reads in novels, poetry and film (mostly novels, though), with the first book offering Patrick's gaze through a large gamut of books, that takes one through centuries of literature, and the second, only through a single series. I'm guessing this isn't sufficient, however possibly most accurate and honest, so I'll say further that the first book is a chronicle of my years of exploring literature, from first year at university until the completion of my masters. This undersells, so I'll add that, one, though the original voice is almost entirely there, I did end up correcting my younger self, here and there. And two, I was 27 when I began, so more than ready to write... no duckling. None were simply applications of theory to text. DeMause is there, so too James F. Masterson (also, Brain, some Chodorow), but really, mostly as complements, I think... I have too much respect for my gaze.. So I suppose it's a chronicle, also, of my development of mind through successive years. I think it finishes strong, and climaxes near the termination of the master's part: so not a magpie's random pickings, but a funnelling to a single culminating point, where, revelation???? At times I was asked to adjust to get published (not the whole thing, but parts), but the poetry of the work just had to stand, and the people asking were oblivious that this was a concern... a longstanding beef. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The Lord of the Rings one is recentish.... last year. Very much about the journey as something that actually dovetails individuation, and reveals the malice of how the hobbits got involved in the quest in the first place. In this bit, you get deMause, and such things as poison containers, abandonment depression and flight to action. I suspect there isn't anything like it out there. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Next book might a lot of Updike. He's my Shakespeare, and like him, he's my bet as to who lasts through centuries. I've now done a much larger survey of psychoanalytic thought, so it might reach my audience -- possibly you guys? -- seeming more fit for the field. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Thanks for the request, Ken. I am inspired... the whole conference, but also reading one of Susan Kavaler-Adlar's books (a meeting of literary works and Melanie Klein/Winnicott), which struck me as very similar to what I do, how I enjoy spending my time. Do more of what I like to do, I thought. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">P.S. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Draining the Amazon's Swamp may not be everyone's favourite title, but it was inspired, as I remember it, a bit from Douglas's "Terrible Honesty: Mongrel Manhattan in the 20s," which is an awesome book, titled awesomely. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">You're very welcome Brain. I'm very glad for your support and encouragement. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">... and in the meantime, I do film reviews,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">at letterboxd</span></u>. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I think "Draining the Amazon's Swamp" is a great title. Punchy and intriguing. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 16</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">kfuchsman@gmail.com</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Michael Eigen has a new book out as an ebook and paperback, entitled The Challenge of being human.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Here is a link to find ut more about it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://www.routledge.com/The-Challenge-of-Being-Human/Eigen/p/book/9781782206538</span></u> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #10147e; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 22.5pt;">The Challenge of Being Human<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12.5pt;">By<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span><b><u><span style="color: #333333;">Michael Eigen</span></u></b><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">©<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span>2018 –<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> Behavioral Science</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">146 pages<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">For Librarians</span></b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #0e7dec;">Available on Taylor & Francis eBooks >></span></u></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #5fb767; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">Purchasing Options:</span></b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #999999; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9pt; padding: 0in;">$ = USD</span><b><span style="color: #5fb767; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;"><span class="MsoHyperlink" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Cambria; font-size: 12pt;">https://www.routledge.com/products/9781782206538</span></span></span><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">Paperback</span></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">:<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span>9781782206538<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">pub: 2018-05-15<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #5fb767; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9.5pt;">SAVE<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #999999; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9.5pt; padding: 0in;">~</span><span style="color: #5fb767; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9.5pt;">$6.79<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;"><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">$27.16</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">x<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span><input name="products[718715]" title="Quantity" type="number" value="1" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;"><span class="MsoHyperlink" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Cambria; font-size: 12pt;">https://www.routledge.com/products/9780429443060</span></span></span><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">eBook</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 7pt;"> (VitalSource) </span><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;"><span class="MsoHyperlink" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Cambria; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: normal;">https://www.routledge.com/The-Challenge-of-Being-Human/Eigen/p/book/9781782206538</span></span></span></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">:<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span>9780429443060<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">pub: 2018-05-20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;"><input name="add[728380]" type="radio" /> </span><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;"> Purchase eBook </span></b><s><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #999999; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt; padding: 0in;">$33.95</span></s><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">$30.56</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #5fb767; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9.5pt; padding: 0in;">SAVE </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #999999; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9.5pt; padding: 0in;">~</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #5fb767; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 9.5pt; padding: 0in;">$3.40</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;"><input name="add[728380_8]" type="radio" /></span><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;"> 12 Month Rental </span></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">-<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span>$20.37<input name="add[728380_9]" type="radio" /></span><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;"> 6 Month Rental </span></b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 8pt;">-<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span>$16.98<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">from </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">$16.9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">from </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 10pt;">$16.9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 24</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">sobering summary of the state of American democracy<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Dear all,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The top story on the CNN website today is an article by Stephen Collinson entitled "Trump is at the top of his dangerous game as midterms loom:"</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/24/politics/donald-trump-midterms-immigration-oval-office/index.html</span></span></u> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><br />Collinson suggests, among other things, that Trump is proactively shaping the midterm election into a referendum on immigration using the so called "caravan" coming from Central America as a bogyman to stoke fear and prejudice. This is a high-stakes game indeed and no-one has a crystal ball. The big unknown that will determine which party ends up controlling the House is turnout of registered voters. In "our" ideal (perhaps fantasy) scenario, Trump may inadvertently achieve for the Democrats something they couldn't achieve for themselves, namely energizing Latino voters, who vote disproportionately Democratic. On the other hand, his framing of the midterms as an anti-immigrant moment may succeed in keeping Republican women in the fold and getting them out to vote, over-riding the anti-Kavanaugh sentiment that had threatened to upend GOP hopes on November 6. As I see it, control of the House (and possibly the Senate) may depend on the relative strength of these two effects.</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><br />For better or for worse, we'll know what happens in less than two weeks. For us as psychohistorians, however, the upshot of the above analysis is that there is no monolithic national group fantasy but rather distinct and often conflicting psychoclasses, some numerically larger than others, and each with their own hot-button issues. We need to understand the political process in terms of the complex resonances and effects--intended and unintended--that Trump's or any other leader's actions have on this divided electorate.<br /><br />Brian<br /><br /><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino.com </span></span></u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;"> </span></span></span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 24</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] sobering summary of the state of American democracy<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Thx, Brian..<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">If you did not see Rachel Maddow’s show last night, please Google it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />Judy <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">609-915-9155, cell<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 26</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">bombing suspect found a father in Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The former attorney of the bombing suspect's family told Anderson Cooper that Cesar Sayoc had been abandoned by his Filipino father and found a father in Trump. Here is the interview:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/10/26/bombing-suspect-sayoc-ron-lowy-attorney-ac360-intv-vpx.cnn</span></u></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Brian</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 27</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] bombing suspect found a father in Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I just wrote this on my Facebook page - the public one that I use to advertise my book. Curious what the group's reaction is.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">_____<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Yesterday was very intense. With everything going on, how could I possibly "take the side of" Trump supporters?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Before I explain, I need to clarify something. I am attempting to do what I do in my psychoanalytic practice - position myself between opposing forces, stand firm, and move back and forth with the goal of inviting warring sides to begin to come together. It's called "internal conflict resolution" within an individual. I maintain that the same process is possible wit<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">hin society.</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">We have warring groups, and they're not understanding each other or coming together. One side will win 51% of the vote for a couple of years, but that's not resolving anything.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">On my personal page, I made the mistake of allying with the left to the point where the right disappeared. I'm still in touch with those people, and over time I came to understand their perspective much more than I ever had. Yea, they came on strong and sounded bullying and mean. But they had something they needed to say, and no one was hearing them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Since they're not here (or here and not talking), I'm trying to identify with them and explain something about where they're coming from. That doesn't mean I'm on their side, nor does it mean I'm on the other side. I'm trying damn hard not to take a side, because I sincerely believe that both sides are flawed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">So why did I/they say that the left is hypocritical? Because of the way they're so quick to label people on the right with language that can feel to them like being called the N word. They're racists! They're Nazis! If you're going to go there, fine. But then don't talk about how lovey-dovey we need to be with all people, no matter what sex, gender, race, religion and culture. How about people with different ways of thinking? Maybe some of them on the extreme ends are mentally ill - that deserves empathy too - but maybe they just have very powerful beliefs about the importance of individual freedom, the role of government, and the fact that a fetus is just as alive as you are.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">If you want to communicate with them, go there. Don't tell them they're stupid, crazy or evil. As a psychiatrist, I know damn well that when you think of someone that way, they'll act out that fantasy.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Am I making any sense?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 27</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] bombing suspect found a father in Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Total sense, Alice.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">It is how I (have to and want to) live - especially here in a community whervthe way I think is in the minority.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judy<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">609-915-9155, cell<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 27</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Catalysis Issues<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">To add to Alice’s ideas and my previous reply.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">What if we were able to learn to tolerate (preferably understand) others’ thinking AND feeling?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Especillay feeling. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">And what if we were to judge only hateful and harmful talk and actions <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">(behaviors )??<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">In addition to work to promote civil liberties for all genders, colors and classes?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">What if a political party - preferably parties - embraced this and included it in the principle of “integrity?”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">There would of course be disagreement defining harms - <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Just some “Blue Sky Visioning” ...since I am just back from APCS to my summer camp<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">all year ‘round airport community today with weather (WX) in the 80s. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">So please forgive any extreme hope and optimism if not inclination to unreality. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">609-915-9155, cell<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] bombing suspect found a father in Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Alice,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">What you say makes complete sense to me as a strategy and position for transforming conflict and facilitating communication. Whether these principles are sufficient to heal the world is a separate question. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">More on that below, but first let me expand on the strengths and merits of what I hear you saying.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Others have independently come to similar conclusions using different terminology, underscoring the truth, relevance and breadth of applicability of what you say. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Jung talked about “mutual shadow projection” and its pivotal role in conflict. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Lloyd deMause talked about how groups designate certain despised others as “poison containers,” which is certainly the way Trump functions psychologically for the left, just as Trump’s various preferred scapegoats play that role for Trump and his followers, a classic illustration of Jung’s mutual shadow projection.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">As for remedies, some version of the golden rule is a well established norm for ethical relationships that can be found in virtually every culture. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">A modern version of this is Stephen Covey’s principle, “Seek first to understand, then to be understood,” one of his “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.” </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Perhaps the originality of your work is your approach to dismantling the unconscious barriers to people actually practicing such principles.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">That said, I would like to suggest that there are other barriers to ethical relationships and good communication that have nothing to do with unconscious complexes and this gets to the question of what else might be necessary for healing the world. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Throughout history, for example, war has not been in the first instance a spontaneous expression of conflict between groups who misunderstand one another but an instrument through which ruling elites use violence to consolidate control of territory and resources. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">To be sure, if one of these elites were to undergo a successful psychoanalysis, he or she might emerge as a Warren Buffet, for example, rather than a Mitch McConnell. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">If the entire ruling class were to undergo such transformation, the whole system might change. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">But psychoanalysts who actually work with rich and powerful clients can probably attest than I can why this scenario is so improbable. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">The people who are most motivated to create peaceful and egalitarian arrangements, other things being equal, are not those benefiting from the current system, but those who are so poorly served by existing arrangements. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">The upshot of this analysis is that the healing of individuals and groups is necessary but not sufficient to heal the world. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">It is also necessary to institute policy and institutional reforms—such as demilitarization, a Green New Deal, and worker controlled enterprises—that are going to be popular with the majority but targets of bitter political opposition by most of the rich and most of the professionals beholden to them and to the current system, which serves them so well. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">We cannot understand the age of Trump, the nature of the Republican Party today, or the conflict between the Hillary Clinton and the Bernie Sanders wings of the Democratic Party using the tools of psychology and conflict transformation alone. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">I have written more about these things in my book,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">The Middle Class Fights Back</span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">http://bdagostino.com/middle-class-fights-back.php</span></u></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">mfbrttn</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Catalysis Issues<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">To pick up on what Alice wrote, I think it is essential to do exactly what Alice is describing. I have a colleague who used to work on community conflict resolution for the Justice Department who described going to one side, listening to them to really understand their views, and then, before leaving to visit the other side, would say: I'm going to see them now. What do you think they're going to tell me about you?</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I think Alice's determination to understand what people on the right think and feel, and how they have arrived at those views, is essential to the conflicting sides moving to "finding" each other as real people who can be understood and with whom some kind of path forward can be found that all sides embrace. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">It is quite impressive to me how thoroughly the left will not try to listen to how they/we fit into the world the right views themselves as confronting, and how the right so thoroughly will not do the same toward the left. Alice is right, in my view, that the skills of being a therapist listening to people and how their thoughts and feelings came to be important to them are invaluable in being anything like a bridge between sides who otherwise relate only to their own sense of the world -- and relegate "the others" to the "bad role" or "stupid role" instead of to the role of being flawed fellow human beings just like us, whoever the "us" is. Therapists want to know how they are seen in the client's world, and how that view came to be. It's not so easy listening to why others don't like us, but that's part of extending the radical respect we hope they'll come to extend to us in turn. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Alice, I think your write-up here would be a good addition to the next edition of your book.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Michael Britton<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Catalysis Issues<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I think it's important to notice that the solutions that people are focussing on here perpetuate the status quo.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">If the dialogue that Alice proposes is even possible in a world of epistemic bubbles and polarization, it would likely lead to what Brian points to as a new party that splits the difference between right and left polarization so that we still end up at the same political point of being a country that remains right of center. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">For me the question is not how to get people to talk and appreciate the different identities that are important to them (i.e. religious identities, ethnic identities, etc.). The question is what is the common ground that can be found between the political right and left so that they can go after a new ideal in which they can eventually let go of the old group identifications that get in the way. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">You can call me cynical, but most people have strong identifications with group identities that aren't based upon their rational choice of them. They don't study different religions or the philosophical arguments for a God but instead identify with the religion they were born into. In discussions I see, people can discuss for a bit, but then get to a bedrock of identification that they don't question. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The biggest deficit I see on the left is their lack of messaging and focus grouping. The right makes constant talking points and memes, while the left believes in the goodness of others to listen when they are presented with "the truth."<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">In my opinion, psychologists on the left have to take this into their own hands and begin to appeal to people on the right, outside of their group identities, by finding the words and perceptions of the world that resonate with them that can align with some of the values of the political left. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Catalysis Issues<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">If you notice, the left's outrage with Trump, Kavanaugh, etc. is not sticking, although they keep going to it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">To keep branding Trump and the right as misogynists, racists, etc. is to not focus on stories like the 400+ million he got from daddy. For people who identify with the great success that they see Trump to be and to be bringing, the latter story would hit harder, than his racist statement du jour. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">It's like the left can't believe that what they feel is normative is not normative for the political right, and when they encounter that perception they double down and compare Trumpists to Nazis and diminish the power of that word. In the wake of anti-Semitic violence the left's indictments of Trumpists previous to this will likely mean that this won't buy them much political capital on the right. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Beneath group identity there are ontological relations to the human and non-human environment that are visible in memes on big government and the nanny state, draining the swamp and wall street vs. main street, fairness and decency, etc. that must be tapped into. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">There are images and symbols that resonate with the regressions that Patrick mentions and which can also be put to use (along with the memes).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Don't settle for a return to a status quo that remains right of center,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Catalysis Issues<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I completely agree with Trevor's point about the left's failure to frame its agenda adequately. Cognitive linguist George Lackoff said much the same thing in</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think</span></i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">, as I discussed in the appendix to my book:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://bdagostino.com/middle-class-fights-back.php</span></u> I would only add here that notwithstanding this, very solid majorities of Americans periodically support far-reaching egalitarian reform, which is how we got the abolition of slavery and reconstruction, reforms of the progressive era, the New Deal, the Great Society, and Obamacare. Occupy Wall Street and now the Bernie Sanders/Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez renewal of the Democratic Party have been the latest phase of this sort. I don't entirely understand these cycles, which Ken has studied more than I; they may be related in some way to child-rearing patterns, but neither deMause nor anyone else to my knowledge has offered an evidence-based explanation.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I have a right wing brother and mother-in-law who support Trump and I go out of my way to understand why they feel the way they do and how they think. I just had lunch yesterday with a retired lawyer from Kentucky who is a Trump supporter and admits he (the supporter) is a racist. I have Jewish friends who are outspoken Zionists (most notably, Arnie) and others who are outspoken critics of the occupation. I have been studying the psychology of ideology since graduate school, and individual people in real life settings provide a wealth of insight into how people's belief systems work. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">That said, at the end of the day, it all comes down to who shows up to vote and how they vote and how the votes are counted. There is a complex interplay between economics and psychology, and the competence and mistakes of individual candidates and campaigns as well as unpredictable shocks (such as the so-called immigrant caravan and the recent wave of political violence) can be decisive. Chaos theory, and ultimately quantum mechanics (which governs brains at the atomic scale), tell us that it is IMPOSSIBLE to predict the outcome of even simple individual events, much less complex events like national elections. So I don't think anyone can claim to have a crystal ball. This is my third and last post for the day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Alice Maher</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Catalysis Issues<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Thanks so much, Michael. I'm delighted that you "got" it. In my book I tried hard not to talk about politics because it's so triggering that even the attempt to go there would prejudice a lot of people. I'm hoping I can do that in my next book, after people begin to understand what I'm trying to do.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">BTW, I'm very excited to have been invited to give a presentation for Hunter Elementary/High School - the best public school in NYC. If I can ally with them to create an emotional literacy pilot project, this "idealistic" vision of mine could take off. Young people get it; they really do. :)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">slswashnj@aol.com, alicemaher@gmail.com, arniedr15@gmail.com</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">We are in the same boat brother...and sister<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: Dr Judith Logue <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></span>><br />To:</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>><br />Cc:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>>;</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemaher@gmail.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemaher@gm<span style="border: none;">ail.com</span></span></span>>; Arnold Richards, MD <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">arniedr15@gmail.com</span></span>><br />Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2018 8:09 am<br />Subject: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">I include both: Alice’s intellectual theoretical approach that results in her educational “recipe; AND Arnie’s next step – concomitant with understanding and education -- which is to stand up for the good and against harm and evil. And fight for it when we must.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Good people who do nothing allow evil to triumph as Edmund Burke said a long time ago.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Alice is doing a lot her way. Arnie the same. </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Susan is too.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">I am in the company of thinkers and doers who are standing for and fighting for democracy in ways that fit your constitution, history and gifts. We are all together in this. Division among us is thrilling for those who foment hatred.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Celebrating our individual strengths and allowing and supporting others who are good to do what we do not do well or do not want to do or know how to do is so important.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">We are a community. I want to support each other, not compete with one another.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">XO,</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Judy</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;"><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;"><span style="border: none;">www.judithlo<span style="border: none;">gue.com</span></span></span></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;"><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.goldilox.net</span></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;"><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.shAIRing.com</span></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><b>Sent:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Monday, October 29, 2018 7:56 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br /><b>Cc:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>;</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemaher@gmail.com</span></span><br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I see it another way We need to use our understanding of the other side to develop strategies to prevail in our efforts to save our democracy We need to tostay planted on both our feet</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: Alice Maher <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicelmaher@gmail.com</span></span>><br />To: cliospsyche <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>><br />Cc: slswashnj <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>>; alicemaher <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemahe<span style="border: none;">r@gmail.com</span></span></span>><br />Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2018 4:47 am<br />Subject: Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Arnie, the model I like to use is this. Our bodies (including our eyes) have two sides that mirror each other. We need both sides for stability, clarity, perspective, depth perception and forward movement. But one of those sides dominates and leads.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">As the election approaches, vote for the side that you see most clearly. Move forward with your dominant side front and center. But always remain aware that good human beings, or flawed human beings, or mentally ill human beings, or human beings who see something you don't, exist on the other side. We need them for stability. Don't cut off your left leg to spite your right.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Susan, I'm very please to "meet" you. Unfortunately we can only create a distorted picture of one another in this faceless, toneless medium, so I'm grateful for your questions. I'm 66 years old, raised Catholic but gratefully adopted by my Freudian Jewish colleagues and my son's fabulous in-laws. I've been trapped in a solo private practice so I haven't traveled much, except to the extent that my patients take me with them on their personal journeys. After 40 years in the field, I've learned to imagine the internal worlds of so many different people, each with a different religious, political and cultural perspective. My book (did Judy tell you about it?) represents my effort to harmonize those clashing but all-too-human voices.</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I hope we can continue this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 3:54 AM arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">How can we understand this situation and parse "the other side" without violating our own principles<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Is there evil in the world?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #1d2129; font-family: Times; font-size: 10.5pt; padding: 0in;">Just back from the UWS memorial gathering in honor of the victims of the Pittsburgh Synagogue massacre at Ansche Chesed. Thousands could not get in and there were simultaneous services inside and outside the Shul, with speakers repeating their talks outside. The overpowering sense of communal mourning and outrage was felt in every word by every charismatic speaker, and every burst of applause from the gathered mourners. The singing, the praying, the listening were the essence of "akhdes" - unity in the face of a horrific assault against our People, and specifically against good people who had gathered to welcome the Shabbes in a place of peace and prayer. When it was mentioned that the oldest martyr in the Etz Chayim massacre was a 97 year old Holocaust survivor, there were audible gasps of shock and horror in the shul. There were speakers from synagogues, the JCC, UJA Federation, and from Muslim and Christian denominations. There is a resolve to fight anti-semitism and hate against any group with the resolve of good people fighting to save the "humanity of humanity" itself."</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Where does understanding the other side fit into this Is there a limit to empathy and understanding?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Can one have a dialogue with rifles or rockets?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">arnie<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>><br />To: cliospsyche <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>><br />Cc: slswashnj <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>>; alicemaher <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemaher@gmail.com</span></span>><br />Sent: Mon, Oct 29, 2018 3:33 am<br />Subject: Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Who doesn't understand who?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.aol<span style="border: none;">.com/article/news/2018/10/28/pittsburgh-jewish-leaders-tell-trump-to-stay-away-unless-he-denounces-white-nationalism/23574390/</span></span></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">How do you try to understand the other without sacrificing your own principles?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Arnie<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: Alice Maher <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicelmaher@gmail.com</span></span>><br />To: cliospsyche <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>><br />Cc: slswashnj <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>>; alicemaher <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemaher@gmail.com</span></span>><br />Sent: Sun, Oct 28, 2018 6:00 pm<br />Subject: Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Hi Susan, Judy and others,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Susan, you may have misunderstood my point. I wasn't referring to antisemitism, which is an entity unto itself. My belief is that listening to people's perspectives, no matter how distorted they may be, is a step toward bridging divides and raising the threshold for violence. That doesn't mean we have to believe them or agree with them. We just have to understand how THEY see the world. I think the left fails in that way, and that failure contributes to fueling the flames of the extreme right.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Antisemitism can originate from very different psychological centers, from the psychotic/paranoid/delusional, to the people who are prejudiced from lack of education and fear, to the people who see Jews as different, odd, rich, smart, trying to run the world and succeeding, which may have some small elements of validity. (Don't they have more Nobel Prizes than any other group?) I sincerely believe that we can be more helpful to those people by trying harder to understand their worldview and address their concerns, rather than yelling "Antisemite!!!" from a fight-or-flight mode.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Alice<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 1:18 PM Dr Judith Logue <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Dear Alice,</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Below are my dear friend’s comments on your post.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">If you respond please include Susan.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Judy</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Susan L Sloan <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><b>Sent:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Sunday, October 28, 2018 10:47 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Dr Judith Logue <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></span>><br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Sorry, but Alice is hugely off the mark. I sort of get the point about tumpie being “a cult leader,” but anti-semitism goes far, far deeper into a psyche than ‘democrats being ‘traumatized parents.’ <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Trump’s continued mantra of denouncing any group not ‘American-Aryan’ has been his ‘hook’ to galvanize the delusional, but thinking the Democrats are in any way a traumatized ‘parent’, and, by default, partially complicit is far too naive a statement. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Anti-semitism predates trump and his delusional followers by thousands of years. And, although I don’t Tweet or watch the rallies, I have never equated trump’s inflammatory language with actual anti-semantic rants. He seems to know better, as dim as he is. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The deranged Pittsburgh killer may have been ‘set off’ by all of trump’s obvious utterances of ‘white supremacy,’ but his learned attitude of hatred of a Semantic race was with him long before trump became a ‘politician.’ And the Democrats or Republicans had nothing to do with it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br />On Oct 28, 2018, at 8:39 AM, Dr Judith Logue <<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Comments?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http:/<span style="border: none;">/groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche<span style="border: none;">.org</span></span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.<span style="border: none;">org</span></span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> <u>Reply</u></span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Alice Maher</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">slswashnj@aol.com, alicemaher@gmail.com, arniedr15@gmail.com</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Amen! <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Howard S</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">slswashnj@aol.com, alicemaher@gmail.com, arniedr15@gmail.com</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Dear Judy,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Good morning from Oklahoma. You speak for me as well.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Warmest regards,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Howard<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Author of </span></b><i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Centre and Circumference (2017) </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">https://www.amazon.com/Howard-F.-Stein/e/B001HCZ62C/ref=ntt_dp_epwpk_0</span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Light and Shadow </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(poetry):</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://doodleandpeck.com/adult</span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Listening Deeply </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(Second Edition):</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://www.amazon.com/Howard-F.-Stein/e/B001HCZ62C/ref=ntt_dp_epwpk_0</span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">The Dysfunctional Workplace </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(with Seth Allcorn): same url as above,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">amazon.com</span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Howard F. Stein, Ph.D.</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Professor Emeritus</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Department of Family and Preventive Medicine</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Oklahoma City, OK USA;</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Phone: 405-787-6074</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Poet Laureate, High Plains Society for Applied Anthropology</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Home address: 1408 Oakhill Lane, Oklahoma City OK 73127 USA</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>] on behalf of Alice Maher [<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicelmaher@gmail.com</span></span>]<br /><b>Sent:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Monday, October 29, 2018 8:41 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@g<span style="border: none;">ooglegroups.com</span></span></span><br /><b>Cc:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">slswashnj@aol.com</span></span>;</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicemaher@gmail.com</span></span>;</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">arniedr15@gmail.com</span></span><br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion</span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Yes, we are all in the same boat. This used to be called "the common good," and it is an idea that makes sense more than ever as the world's 7.6 billion people and their leaders try to fashion a common destiny on a single planet with limited resources. I would only add that the most consequential divisions between people may not be between White racists and Blacks, or between Anti-Semites and Jews, or between Nativists and immigrants. What if all this inter-ethnic strife is a red herring that conveniently obscures the real division of consequence, between those who hold vast economic and institutional power over our common future and those who are increasingly desperate about their livelihoods and how they are going to pay their bills? These mundane considerations may not loom large for most of us on this list, but if we want to understand the world in which we live including why Donald Trump is president of the United States, I think we need to understand this larger context.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">To see my point, ask yourself why Trump and his supporters target George Soros and not Sheldon Adelson, even though both of them are wealthy Jews? Maybe anti-Semitism is not fundamentally what this is about. Let's look at the economic meanings of ethnic sterotypes and how they have been exploited by power holders. In Europe for centuries, the meme of the "money grubbing Jew" served to conveniently deflect the hostility of peasants away from the aristocracy--which actually held most of the wealth and got rich from the peasants' labor--onto middle class merchants who played little or no role in their exploitation but served as suitable scapegoats because of their cultural otherness.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Similarly, the meme of the lazy Black getting government welfare gives White working people a convenient scapegoat to blame for their troubles instead of the corporate CEOs and political elites who are outsourcing their jobs and trying to dismantle their union and government benefits. It is in this context, I would argue, that we need to understand Trump's demagoguery and the threat that the Republican Party and its propaganda apparatus poses to our democracy. In saying this, I am taking sides in the fundamental political struggle of our day. I expect Alice to continue doing what she does best, which is to facilitate communication and seek to transform conflict. My point, though, is that social conflict is a symptom and not a fundamental problem, and that the fundamental problem--a political-economic system that serves the few at the expense of the many--cannot be solved by conflict transformation alone. It will require policy and institutional reforms that create a system that works for everyone and the common good. I have written about this at greater length in my book:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://bdagostino.com/middle-class-fights-back.php</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">drwargus</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Well said Brian. One of my skepticisms about Lloyd's work was that he neglected economic conditions. He suggested that childrearing and childhood trauma were dominant and not significantly affected by life conditions, including wealth and poverty. </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Furthermore, there is little discussion about power and how money is related to power.</span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">I was speaking with my investment advisor the other day. You know, we used a call investment people stockbrokers. Then they tried to frame themselves differently by calling themselves "money managers." Now the buzz word is "wealth management." It occurred to me that what they are really saying is "status management." People want to maintain their status in society by maintaining or increasing their wealth. Most people fear losing their status in society, and I think that explains some of Donald Trump's appeal.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">It is, indeed, a "<i>red herring</i>" which pivots from<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">and diverts attention from admitting how we're<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">being played and from accepting responsibility <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">for this manipulation and distortion of the truth.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I completely agree with Brian's analysis. It's all<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">about the beans, (and the bean counters) baby. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Warm Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I don’t see the need for an either/or or a red herring, both the economic and the tribal us vs. them can be true. We don’t need to discount one or the other; they are both significant problems, though the us vs. them pattern goes back to the relatively egalitarian days of hunter/gatherers. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Points well made, Brain.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Joel<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 29</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Promotion<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">He didn’t overlook, only emphasized that economic surpluses were the more terrifying problem, for threatening growth panic. He discusses economic depressions, but said were willed— tactic, like anorexia, to avoid seeming worthy of attack.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Awomen too!<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 5</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Everyone on my twitter feed agrees that we'll know tomorrow if we still have a democracy. I'd like to maintain that is way too early to ascertain that. If democrats win, check in the year ahead how many democrats start agreeing with the idea that we are ostensibly in need of "firming up" our borders... and how a return to nationalism -- economic; otherwise -- isn't so bad a thing. In my judgment, this will mean that they too are beginning to project their mothers onto the nation, and soon enough, will start projecting their "bad selves," the ones that stood up for their desire to self-actualization and separate from mother/not further attend to her needs, onto those outside the border/hems of her skirt.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">Claire McCaskill, discusses her love of borders and fear of the caravan, on Fox News.</span></span></u> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Vamik is coming up quite as someone who will help, who IS helping, in efforts to bridge peace and understanding. This is the same Vamik, I presume, who built his earlier career on research into homosexuality, establishing it as sexual perversion, is he not?... he's the one who's linked in with Charles Socardes, the theorist most despised by the LGBT community, is he not? Look, if we learn that not 50 percent of the county has a desire to regress -- we should assume every Republican counts as doing so -- but, as we encounter more and more democrats speaking for firming up borders and return to self-sacrifice/against individualism, that way upwards of 50 percent of Americans are doing so, then collectively they'll seek to find ways to justify an attack on our society's most progressive members for their most representing the "crime" of enabling the most number of Americans to not be broken by such things as prejudice and victim-blaming, so to thereby realize their full potential. We'll see more Americans hating, most especially, groups that seek to assist our weakest. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">One way we can expect they'll do that is making them seem those who are counter to what they have always represented themselves -- the holders of expertise; the ones with firmest understanding of facts. Which they will in fact be able to do, because a lot of social science HAS BEEN built, as such people like Steven Pinker argue, on romanticizing, and on projection onto specified poison containers -- white men. While this is not actually a crime, not actually a reflection of betrayal of cause, for what we have seen is only what we see through history when we explore progressive movements -- that they have blindspots; a need, still, for some psychic manipulation, some misappropriation of the world, for purposes of equilibrium, even amongst that society's most emotionally evolved, which are reduced in severity through each generation -- it will be easily established as a crime by a society no longer able to justify to themselves that their own growth is permitted given the specific sacrificial victims progressives have offered in which to offload punishment -- ie., white man -- and who will now seek respite from apocalyptic punishment by pulling the plug on the progressive agencies they had just previously lent their staunch support to. Another look will be taken to all the disproof of homosexuality as a sexual perversion, and it will be found... actually wanting. Homosexuality in particular, because a nation that is clinging back to mother, through nationalism, through merger with the mother nation, feels feminized in doing so, hence the absolute need to destroy "girly men" -- so to ostensibly assure of heterosexuality -- found in periods of fascism. Indeed, this phenomena is already happening, as both right</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">AND left are turning suddenly aggressively homophobi</span></span></u>c (the left doesn't seem to be able to portray the Putin-Trump relationship as anything other than sucking dicks or bending over). The right is noticing this strange occurrence amongst the left, making it seem that they were only ever in the business of power; are totally disingenuous ... Tucker Carlson did a feature on it. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Vamik will sucked into this hole, as facts, legitimate facts... facts along the lines that Pinker points out, emerge, but ONLY IN WEAPONIZED FORM, for our era will only laud insight, or more focused awareness of the world, if it senses this in ultimate service to doing more to keep people apart from anything as thrilling and satisfying and scorned-parent betraying, as understanding ourselves and the world better. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Note: I think that deMause is right that after periods where huge numbers of people have been deterred from realizing their true selves, depression and great war periods, that afterwards progressives psychically are enabled to pursue growth without it feeling at some level wrong, bad, sinful -- requiring that "containers" be enabled to serve as proxy-sufferers for your own "crimes." So Jazz Age; so 1960s. Only that this doesn't last, and the way growth continues is unfortunately through means as sick and sad but absolutely necessary as this. Late-1970s on, what was fuelled in terms of allowance by the depression lost and world war 2 dead, was depleted. The only way progressivism lived on was to do so in a way which sets it up rather easily for dismissal when society can no longer sustain growth, however qualified/compromised/contaminated. It lived on since late 70s in way which allows people like Chris Hedges to neatly sum it up as about one class enabling itself at the expense of the majority of citizens, while using political correctness to entangle and delegitimize any who opposed. Hedges says progressivism has been about boutique concerns. It has not been about that at all. It needs to be defended, for out of its current form, is where we'll find better, not in any of the opposition. But it can easily be made to seem so. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I know there aren't many demausians here, but maybe this challenge is of help. I push to keep us smart and not surprised. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Speaking of the devil... from today's Outline (an outgrowth of the now-lost Gawker),</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">an article of the rise of transphobia on the (British) left</span></span></u>... the rise of "momsyism"-- they're coming for your children! Article advocates that, "</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; letter-spacing: 0.15pt; padding: 0in;">Here in the U.K. it’s time for us to get our noses out of each other’s knickers and discover some solidarity with our trans siblings, to offer them the basic respect and recognition they so obviously deserve. It’s vanishingly rare that I think any country should take advice from the shitshow that is the U.S., but with regard to feminism, at least American leftists don’t tend to Lean In to bigotry quite as much."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Quote:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-size: 13.5pt; letter-spacing: 0.15pt; padding: 0in;">You might imagine that rampant transphobia is primarily animated by a conservative movement, as seen in the U.S. in various states’ bathroom bills, or the entire Trump administration. The truth is, while the British conservative right would almost certainly be more than happy to whip up a frenzy of transphobia, they simply haven’t needed to, because some sections of the left over here are doing their hate-peddling for them. The most vocal source of this hatred has emerged, sadly, from within circles of radical feminists. British feminism has an increasingly notorious TERF problem.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Eddie Taylor, PhD</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 5</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judy,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Your kindness and support is truly appreciated. This group is a blessing.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Eddie<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.eddietaylorphd.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">On Nov 5, 2018 6:36 AM, Dr Judith Logue <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Dear Eddie,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">I’m not sure if this is post 3 or 4, so with reluctance if it’s 4.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Your important video brought tears to my eyes.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">The fact that we still have the degree of hate against my fellow Americans who are black sickens me.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Whatever I personally and professionally can do to promote collaboration (love not hate), I want to do.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Please keep posting, even if, and especially if, you are in a minority or alone.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">You have allies who are open to learning with depth.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Bless you,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Judy</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: blue;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: blue;">www.goldilox.net</span></u></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: blue;">www.shAIRing.com</span></u></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">From:</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Eddie Taylor, PhD <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">emtaylornupe@yahoo.com</span></u>></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><b>Sent:</b></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Monday, November 05, 2018 8:06 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Dr Judith Logue <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></u>><br /><b>Subject:</b></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Prevention<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judy,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I appreciate your words and standing up for Black America/African Americans.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I read through most of post. I understand that there is a difference between saying something and having something to say. For centuries, America has been a difficult place for Black people. We have endured the most morbid acts and cruel treatment from the White House to the outhouse. Whereas, there seems to be a return to blatant hatred, I am grateful for non-Black people who stand up for right, humanity and decency.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">My work is focused primarily on bringing awareness to Black America and those who support humanity (for the sake of Black America). We (Black people) have been conditioned to a form of self-destruction that makes for a two-edged sword. A little White child said to me after a presentation, that we are doing so much harm to each other that it takes away from our protests of justice. This group has been so helpful in understanding, as well as considering how the unconscious is involved in such a crucial state. I believe that it will be the work that we do that will greatly contribute to healing this land.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Here is a 2 minute video of what I am doing.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://youtu.be/cIVseLdO4-0</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">In gratitude,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Eddie<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.eddietaylorphd.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">On Nov 5, 2018 5:34 AM, Dr Judith Logue <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Thank you, Arnie. I’ve never known a physician or nurse who would not do what Ari Mahler, RN did. Whether s/he is Jewish or of another color, class or gender.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">I just read a Yahoo news article about two black women in a parking lot waiting for AAA and a white supremacist woman threatening them with her concealed weapon and claiming she is a “hot white” American. Law enforcement found her and charged her b/c the black women recorded the assault. We are a largely white group here on Clio’s. I’d like to stand up for my dear African-American friends who go back to my nursery school through h.s. years, and who still communicate with me via Facebook.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">So do we intellectuals and clinicians DO something in addition to writing and talking about it? It’s not just about Jews and blacks either. It’s about each of us.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">For instance, if we want to promote the psychoanalytic perspective, do we criticize and undermine the significant work of colleagues? Do we not support their strengths b/c of their vulnerabilities and blindspots? From my 54 years of experience in this field, we sure do more of this than otherwise.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">An example that comes to mind: If there is a film or creative work or article or idea that promotes depth and psychoanalytic thinking for the general public, do we support the individuals who do not like or agree with specific issues and have real and important disagreements with the protagonist? Do we continue to allow internecine conflict and competition among us keep us from seeing the big picture?</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Do we not see the forest because we are stuck picking on each other in the trees? So far, it seems as if the answer has been, “yes, we rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.” So far, the right and left are too often doing this in the media, too. Not just listserv participants on most of my professional listservs with very intelligent and educated members.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">OK, I’ve reached my posting limit and rant for today! Everyone should be relieved. I am.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><br />Judy</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">From:</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><b>Sent:</b></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Monday, November 05, 2018 7:03 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br /><b>Subject:</b></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Racism and Violence Prevention<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Forgive the length</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> <u>Reply</u></span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 5</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Eddie Taylor, </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">According to Brittney Cooper</span></span></u>, the scourge in black families is spanking... authoritative childrearing. She argues that it came into being when it was of great service because it lead to the ideal sort of child -- a cowed, deferential, fearful child -- that was most likely to survive through an era of slave-ownership -- according to Cooper, a child with a greater sense of self would have been annihilated by slave owners, and their mothers knew this all too well, so, very reluctantly, and with tremendous courage, they applied the lash upon their own children. Within this listserv there are those who reference the work of Michael Milburn, however, who has argued that the origins weren't actually</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">there</span></i><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">but actually had roots before that in Africa, and so their "abuse" wasn't uniquely actually a stratagem built out of love but rather sourced the way heretofore all abuse was understood to -- as a register of genuine hate, not love, for the child. (In no way of course is Milburn attempting to minimize the vileness of slavery, even as of course he could be targeted as doing so for believing that the authoritarianism pre-dates slavery in the American colonies. It is impossible to read his work and encounter him and not know him as in the forefront of loving individuals existing today.) </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I bring this up because those studying our current "situation," its root causes, are certainly thinking along the lines of economic deprivation, loss of status owing to casual disregard through automation... "progress," but also owing to authoritarian roots in childhood -- psychohistorical causes. People who explore this cause, these types of causes, can't help but be fearful that the spread of Trumpism... of regression, for closed-thinking rather than flexible-thinking, won't just be amongst white people but all ethnicities -- many of whom still raise their children, if not with spanking, still highly punitively. If they explore this much they would expect that all children emerging out of families like this will eventually turn against any other societal group that represents the disallowed "spoiled" child, the person they were deterred away from being... the "bad self," and so, increasingly from them, a turn toward the like of antisemitism, for Jews evidencing, overall, life happily lived. People looking to want to point this out would seem to be discouraged from doing so... because being all for black Americans is a clear marker for their own virtue they can't psychically afford to lose; because they'd seem traitors to everything they've ever believed in; and so if it is inclined to grow and spread, it will do so, mostly unopposed. What you'll encounter from people like us is avoidance... and a furious redirection of distress-from-dissonance onto regressing white Americans, the familiar old target, until guilt owing to removal of these containers of our poisons is taken away from us entirely, an effort that began recently with the rise of Hillbilly Elegy... of the forced conception that those white Americans out there ARE ACTUALLY not deplorable but our most deeply and profoundly ignored. And it'll be like a performance, performance "goodness," rather than about well-addressed/articulated redress of a problem nothing less than our current spread of fascism. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">What are your thoughts on this? After Kanye merges with his father Trump and establishes himself as a nationalist, too, when most Americans turn to the next step, towards antisemitism, from forming the nation-as-mother onto isolating target "bad boys," do you think we'll start seeing anti-Semitic thought out of him as well?</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Patrick (my third and last post of the day)</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">binsightfl1</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 5</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">food for thought...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">There is a difference, Patrick, to me, from the capacity for authoritarianism in many or most people … and from the assertion that it IS in ALL of us.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">I prefer to use “most” or “usual” or “frequently” or “typically” or “sometimes” instead of “all” or “always” or “never.”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">It feels more accurate, at least to me.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Do you have some ideas about how Republicans and Democrats and Independents can progress as well as regress?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">And some psychodynamic reasons and a psychoanalytic perspective as to how come this might be able to happen?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Judy</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.goldilox.net</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.shAIRing.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u> <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston<br /><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 08, 2018 7:34 AM<br /><b>To:</b> Clio’s Psyche <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>><br /><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cliospsyche] Hooray<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Hi Joel. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I don't know that fascist tendencies exist in all of us, because I'm a deMausian, and favour the importance of care and love given to a child so much, that if given amply by parents who have finally had enough love provided to themselves they no longer seek it out of their children, and so genuinely cheer at their progressing beyond them, there is exactly ZERO chance they could even turn fascist. Fascism is regression out of terrible fear of Mother. Without any concept of this, you'll never either stop your own progress forth or think that anyone on the planet has earned their pain. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Your point about democracy being "decadent, " and of how everyone agreed upon it at the time... is something I am thinking of when I argue to expect that republicans and democrats -- both -- will start regressing. I don't ever believe it's about such and such being disproven, or of another way seeming more effective, rational. I think they at the time knew that if this change away from democracy could somehow actually enable GENUINELY more prosperity and, somehow, more individuality... that it was likely overall to encourage, not euphoric happiness, but restive, normal happiness, they would not have "chosen" fascism. They needed to see happiness overall stumped, they needed to see themselves stumped in terms of individuality... for only that way could the ever-looming Mother maybe not see in them the ongoing furtherance of the spoiled individual who so deserved punishment. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Cheers.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br /><br />On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 12:20:47 PM UTC-5, Joel Markowitz wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">As you know, fascist tendencies exist in all of us, Patrick. Collective events determine when they emerge.</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Fascism seemed to be the most-viable and most-effective collective system in the 1930s. Mussolini labeled democracy “decadent.” Almost everyone agreed at that time. </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Following The Economic Crash in 1929 and the Denial and Regression of democracies, even communism seemed a more-effective system.</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The defeat of the fascist nations helped to illuminate the flaws in fascism and fascist dynamics. As we progress, we notice them more quickly and oppose them more effectively. </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Psychohistorians must become more psychodynamic to accelerate this process.</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Joel </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On Nov 7, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">pmcevoyhalston@gmail.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">And I’ll continue to point out how when fascism came to America, it was bipartisan.<br /><br />--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Hi Judith.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I'm saying the majority will regress. All republicans already have, but, by the simple fact of experienced ongoing progress, more and more democrats will also, as they begin to feel they have trespassed into territory where their mothers will either abandon them for good, or punish them terribly -- both apocalyptic outcomes, that simply cannot be allowed to happen. DeMause believes/believed that there are alive today people who have simply gone beyond the capacity to regress at all. Milestone. From them come subsequent generations that will never end up feeling anxious by too much change; will be able to demonstrate ongoing capacity to delight in it. If I was a visiting 2001 obelisk over all the things that wo/mankind has accomplished over the milleniums, it is this event I would have set myself down to see. This is way bigger than the psychohistorical evolution to jesus (I'm agnostic), and the end of mass child-sacrifice associated with him. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">What can we do? Spread the word that demause's theory of psychohistorical evolution is right; that his idea that progress leads eventually to collective fusion with the "good" mother and the splitting off of bad selves and bad mothers onto others, is right. With this knowledge, no matter how many neighbours end up talking "strange" -- coming to agree that however bad Trump is, that acknowledgement should be given to our being nationalistic again, for our valuing the sanctity of national borders again -- and we begin to suspect, oh god, more or less, this will be 1930s Germany -- not actually as bad, but experienced as as bad by a society that has overall improved in childrearing -- it will be no more than about ten years and then will die on its own. Somewhere in the collective mind will be an ongoing tabulation of all the individuality sacrificed through this period, all the potential in lived life, gone undeveloped... and eventually it will be deemed -- enough; enough to satisfy the aggregate mother from out of our childhoods sense that this could amount to sufficient contrition, sufficient penance, for our sin of separating from her and living our own lives. There's a Chris Hedges quote I keep in mind, which goes something like, after 1945, Germans went back to being Weimar again. What he meant was that Germans more or less junked the last ten years of cultural products from their imagination, and went back to when they were more forthright inventive and creative; happy. The literature scholar, Morris Dickstein, said something similar about the Americans after the war. From this awareness, I would encourage people to go for broke, now, in terms of their creativity, harken their work back to the 60s or 70s, if these were our culture's most creative decades, for even if full of crossed-over taboos now, it's exactly where we'll be back ten years from now. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I am very active in a group called the NewYorker Movie Facebook Club. 26 000 members. Different age groups; global. Much of what I do is essentially psychohistorical analysis there. I "see" people there; appreciate and challenge them. It feels to me that my presence there is helping spread good. I also fiercely get at those who are trying to create a bullying atmosphere there, where some people will find themselves unable to brave saying their mind. I feel this is helping encouraging people to brave exposing what they really think there. I'm a therapeutic presence there, is my sense. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I won't do a thing for republicans, for they are lost. I work with democrats, and point out all the ways in which they are ALREADY doing the kinds of things that fundamentally represent everything they are ostensibly devoutly opposed to. If I don't do it to shame, I think it works to get people to stop for a moment... and consider. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Cheers Judith. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The other thing I am doing Judith, is finding ways to work with the powerful interest in the effects of trauma, especially with a younger gen. of scholars. To me, the moment when Freud "backed down" from realizing that sexual abuse of children of abuse was the norm... way back 140 yrs ago, has come again -- with sufficient support this time, that we're upon a breakthrough realization we'll never back down from again. Many of my previous essays in English Literature were deMausian this way, assumed that such and such was the result of early abuse... but the timing wasn't right for this to seem anymore than food for thought, maybe. I might try and tunnel back into these studies, going whole-hog Judith Herman/Body Knows the Score, and thereby join interest with a sense of welcome audience, and maybe play a part in exciting a younger gen. concerning how much is still firmly ripe for them to explore, concerning literature, concerning all things, with the great taboo of "though shall not be aware," finally sufficiently broken through, with the rise of #MeToo. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The huge numbers of people who are #MeToo, is an exciting collection of people to count oneself amongst over the next ten years, but in my judgment, their numbers aren't anywhere near the number of those who'll prove ACTUALLY ANXIOUS, that this is another progressive movement that will mean fewer and fewer lives, crushed and punishment in substitute for one's own felt crimes in life (i.e., individuaating, self-actualizing.) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Forgive syntax and spelling. I'm quickly on the go... <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Yes, yes we can!</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">May love, respect and dignity overtake hatred, disrespect and shaming.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;"><br />Let’s hope the Democrats and Republicans, too, figure out how to balance healthcare, the economy, immigration and international affairs to promote integrity everywhere.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Thank you, Clio’s Forum, and all my friends on it, for helping save our souls, especially mine through these painful and hard years.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Judy</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.goldilox.net</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.shAIRing.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br /><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 07, 2018 2:58 AM<br /><b>To:</b> <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br /><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cliospsyche] hooray<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Indeed! Democracy lives to see another day! --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On Wed, Nov 7, 2018, 1:58 AM arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br /><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://thehill.com/homenews/house/415365-dems-retake-house-majority</span></span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">visit <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The still incomplete election results are both major and quite mixed. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The great news is that the Democrats will control the House, and have three talented Chairs heading Judiciary, Oversight, and Intelligence. They will have subpoena power, which Trump will likely often resist in the courts. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The Republicans will hold the Senate. The House Democrats will likely increase their number by over 30, not as strong as the 64 the Republicans gained in 2010. The nation remains deeply divided politically; partisanship will likely remain intense, and divided government will be an improvement but deadlock will often prevail. Trump’s power will often be checked, and that is a life saver for those who believe in constitutional government in the U. S. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">In 2014, 83 million voted in the Congressional election of 2014, and likely 114 million in 2018. A dramatic and hopeful increase. In 2017, there were 252 million vote eligible Americans. We still have the lowest percent of our population voting of any highly industrial country. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">In 1787, Ben Franklin reportedly proclaimed we have a Republic if you can keep it. He did not say, we have a democracy. If democracy is defined as rule by the majority, that is not our system. In 40 percent of the elections in this century, a Republican candidate became President with fewer votes than his Democratic opponent. This ain’t democracy. Furthermore given that the electoral college system favors focusing on swing states, in the 2016 general election, two thirds of all campaign visits were to just six states, 94 percent to 12 states. California and Texas each had 1 visit, New York none, Florida 71, Ohio 54. Effective candidates do better if they focus their message on what appeals to swing state voters rather than the majority of the populace. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Still, there will be a major attempt to hold the Trump administration accountable, and the electorate has spoken in ways that can limit Trump’s abuses of power. But as Bette Davis said, it’s going to be a bumpy night. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Read James Comey’s piece in the Op Ed section of today’s NY Times. A bull’s eye for accuracy.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">And bless you, Judy. Keep stepping up to the plate! What would Clio do without you?</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">( Two metaphors so early in the day should bode well for the rest of it. )</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Joel</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">On Nov 7, 2018, at 5:35 AM, Dr Judith Logue <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt; padding: 0in;">-- </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;"><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><><><></span><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">To post to this group send to: </span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: purple; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;"><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: </span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: purple; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;">cliospsyche.org</span></u></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;"><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.</span><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Home: </span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: purple; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;"><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">--- </span><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.</span><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to </span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: purple; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt; padding: 0in;">.</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;"><br /><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">For more options, visit </span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: purple; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8pt; padding: 0in;">.</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">And I’ll continue to point out how when fascism came to America, it was bipartisan.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">What are you talking about, Patrick? Our most recent fascist periods were the Red Scare of the 1920s, McCarthyism in the 1950s, Reaganism in the 1980s, George W. Bush's War on Terrorism, and now Trump. The Republicans were in power during all of these periods. In</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Why Some Politicians Are More Dangerous Than Others</span></i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">, James Gilligan also showed that these periods of Republican dominance are associated with statistically significant spikes in homicide and suicide. If you dispute these empirical findings, let's hear your reasons and disconfirming evidence.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I say this as someone who has no illusions about the corruption, militarism, and organized stupidity of the Democratic Party. But these things are not the same as fascism, and Gilligan's research shows that for ordinary Americans, who are affected in their daily lives by law and public policy, which party is in power is literally a matter of life and death.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The truth is, you were betting that Trump and Trumpism were going to sweep the US political system, and the electorate proved you wrong yesterday. The effect would have been even bigger if our political institutions were truly democratic, which, as Ken pointed out, they are not.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">On 11/7/2018 11:17 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Courier; font-size: 10pt;">And I’ll continue to point out how when fascism came to America, it was bipartisan. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">As you know, fascist tendencies exist in all of us, Patrick. Collective events determine when they emerge.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Fascism seemed to be the most-viable and most-effective collective system in the 1930s. Mussolini labeled democracy “decadent.” Almost everyone agreed at that time. </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Following The Economic Crash in 1929 and the Denial and Regression of democracies, even communism seemed a more-effective system.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The defeat of the fascist nations helped to illuminate the flaws in fascism and fascist dynamics. As we progress, we notice them more quickly and oppose them more effectively. </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Psychohistorians must become more psychodynamic to accelerate this process.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Joel </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">On Nov 7, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">pmcevoyhalston@gmail.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">And I’ll continue to point out how when fascism came to America, it was bipartisan.</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The term fascist is often used rather loosely. Those who post about it should explain what they think fascism is. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I am using the term "fascist" as synonymous with "right wing authoritarian." Bob Altemeyer, one of Patrick's fellow Canadians, developed a Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) construct for measuring such attitudes, which was essentially an updated version of Adorno et al's F-scale, but more systematically designed to tap only right wing (and not left wing) authoritarianism. A free ebook of his</span><i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">The Authoritarians</span> </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">is available at:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.theauthoritarians.org/</span></span></u></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Milton Rokeach in</span> <i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">The Open and Closed Mind</span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">, provided a two dimensional typology for classifying fascism (in this sense) and other ideologies in terms of two core values--freedom and equality. Fascism appears in the quadrant of people who score low in their valuation of both freedom and equality. Below is the complete typology. --Brian</span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"> HIGH Freedom LOW</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">HIGH Democratic Socialism Communism</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">LOW Capitalism Fascism</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Brian,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Here is a different definition of fascism<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #5b5b5b; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10.5pt; padding: 0in;">Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University in New York who is widely considered the father of fascism studies, defined fascism as "a form of political practice distinctive to the 20th century that arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques for an anti-liberal, anti-socialist, violently exclusionary, expansionist nationalist agenda."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> (<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html</span></u>)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I never said Republicans were going to win. I had no thoughts as to specific outcome.... Trump is "people," not "Republican." I said we'll turn fascist regardless of outcome. This is documented. Twice. Check it out. I believe that many who voted Democrat will evidence support FOR Trump... and most certainly for borders and nationalism, where we'll see plenty of genuinely willing bipartisanship. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">By fascism what I mean is a majority of a populace projecting their mothers outwards, across a span of geography and a span of peoples, which encompasses them, and their own effort to submit to Her by becoming good sons and daughters who have fully renounced what they believe most drew an apocalyptic, punishing ire to seemingly be on the cusp of breaking through upon them and destroying them -- their individualism, their freedom -- and projecting out these bad selves onto other people. Nationalism, fascism... either work to get at this, but I don't think a proper term for this phenomena yet exists. It would somewhere have to contain the term "mommy," to be apt. I don't know if any longer we have to do the latin root thing, though. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I was speaking, not of the past ... mind you, the 30s in the U.S., were how close to fascist exactly?, but as if from two years in the future, where it will be seen how many of the Bernie Bros who -- as if she was their vile mother! -- so hated Hillary Clinton, actually already were beginning to engage in a good mother/bad mother splitting, and in hating Wall Street so much they would have laughed if all traders were shown before them, hanged, were already beginning to project out their own egotistical, narcissistic, spoiled bad selves onto suitable others, and in becoming "the people," "the commons," already becoming the selves who are making an effort to deface their distinction and personality and fuse... "group," and who would, if called upon, literally die to sustain the renewal of their increasingly mystical-seeming homeland. I was thinking of the democrats who saw in the rise of #MeToo, the greatest effort I've ever seen to make victims know they will no longer be ignored and predators that they will no longer be de facto endorsed, an effort that was unfairly taking down men who most undoubtedly were "falsely accused" -- they all knew of someone whom this for sure had had happen to them! -- and finding themselves secretly gleeful when feminism was no longer allowed to go so uncontrolled as masculinity, masculine self-sacrifice -- always important but always "the last to speak for itself" -- was redeemed as the virtue it always was. I was thinking of the democrats who cheered that more universities were following the U of Chicago example and no longer permitting safe space/trigger warning nonsense... no longer tolerating gender studies and postmodern entanglements and becoming willing to bravely speak up for the good ol' American empiricist tradition, and who, when it comes to uppity students who in their extreme privilege were unmooring us from any capacity to cause due doubt and nurture healthy challenge, were happy to admit that, alas, sometimes indeed "the stick" is the best solution to tantrum-prone children -- no other way to deal with them. Bad selves, bad mommies, being projected out... this is the view of much of republican AND democrat nation, as I viewed them, circa 2020. (Note: some part of this is a fabrication. Specifically the me-visiting-from-another-time part, which is wholesale lie. I ask for Asimovian psychohistorical latitude on this, because... why not.) </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Everyone is looking for censures of Trump. Okay. I'm going to be on the lookout for the spread of democrats sounding increasingly nationalistic and way contra previous values, with them actually hating some of the very people they were on the forefront of defending... as they evidently already have been, with the current rise in their delighting in homophobic imagery and all. I expect that many democrats will never recognize what history will at some point make an effort to show -- that they ended up turning, too, as progress became too much for even them to handle, though they never realized. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">david</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Here's an excerpt from by 2005 paper titled Fascism Resurgent on defining fascism.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">"Stanley Payne in his book,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">A History of Fascism</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">, identifies the three key features as extreme nationalism, the redemptive power of violence, and the cult of the leader</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#00aa01d4771b$5b02cec0$11086c40$@nycap.rr.com__edn1" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #6611cc; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14pt;">[i]</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">. Others scholars have emphasized fascism’s authoritarian streak, its intolerance of other political or social movements or values. These cite fascism’s opposition to democracy, liberalism, Marxism, modernity, feminism, and homosexuality. Others have stressed fascism’s militaristic, racist, and xenophobic qualities.</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#00aa01d4771b$5b02cec0$11086c40$@nycap.rr.com__edn2" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #6611cc; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14pt;">[ii]</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">I would like to present a more psychohistorical and psychoanalytic approach to identifying the essence of fascism. I suggest that fascism involves an exaggerated tendency toward the use of primitive splitting mechanisms; dividing the world into good and evil; externalizing the evil by projecting it onto the alien enemy other while claiming exclusive possession of the good for oneself and one’s cohort. This way of looking at fascist impulses and actions allows us to see the commonality among a number of apparently disparate types of political activities. These would include war waged against an identified external enemy; the scapegoating of those who are foreign, alien, or different – whether they be Jews, Blacks, Arabs, homosexuals, immigrants, anarchists, Bolsheviks, communists, socialists, Catholics, Moslems, atheists or secular humanists; and the suppression of ideas which are not in agreement with the dominant political ideology. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">As Freud and other psychoanalysts have noted, this type of primitive splitting results in a relaxation of the usual superego prohibitions against harming others. Once a suitable target of externalization has been found, when the enemy has been identified, license is granted to do violence to them. All manner of aggression becomes permissible, war, conquest, and exploitation of foreign enemies as well as persecution and harsh treatment of domestic enemies. Civil liberties can be denied. Radicals and subversives can be criminalized and criminals can be severely punished. Acts of brutal racism or homophobia, hate crimes ranging from discrimination to murder, become justifiable.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">This definition of fascism is admittedly quite broad. Note that by this definition various acts performed by left wing regimes, for example, the Jacobin terror of the French revolution, the purges and persecutions in Stalin’s Soviet Union, and the violent excesses of Mao Tse Tung’s cultural revolution can all be considered as expressions of fascism."</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;">i</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Lee, Martin,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The Beast Reawakens,</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">New York: Routledge, 2000. p. 10<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 9pt; padding: 0in;">ii</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Payne, Stanley,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">A History of Fascism, 1914-1945.</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1995<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; padding: 0in;">[1]</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> Lee, p. 9-11<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u> <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ken Fuchsman<br /><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 07, 2018 2:20 PM<br /><b>To:</b> <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br /><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cliospsyche] Hooray<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#00aa01d4771b$5b02cec0$11086c40$@nycap.rr.com__ednref1" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">[i]</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Payne, Stanley,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">A History of Fascism, 1914-1945.</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1995<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.blogger.com/null" name="00aa01d4771b$5b02cec0$11086c40$@nycap.rr"></a><a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#00aa01d4771b$5b02cec0$11086c40$@nycap.rr.com__ednref2" style="color: blue;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">[ii]</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Lee, p. 9-11<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The historical and psychological ways of defining fascism seem clearly complimentary to me. Paxton's approach, cited by Ken, takes the case studies of twentieth century European fascism (especially Italy and Germany) and asks what they have in common. As historians typically do, this approach delimits the subject matter by an arbitrary choice of case studies. Psychologists and social scientists try to find statistically robust generalizations from specific cases. Thus, Adorno et al in</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">The Authoritarian Personality</span></i> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">(1950) asked what could have motivated European fascism, and whether the same kind of underlying personality might also be present in the United States and elsewhere. To answer these questions, they devised the F-scale and using the methods of survey research, found that similar personality and motivational dynamics could indeed be found in the American public. </span> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The Authoritarian Personality</span></i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">was informed by observation of and reflection upon the European "specimens" of fascism through the conceptual lens of psychoanalytic theory and the picture of fascism they came up with is very similar to the psychoanalytic one David proposes. Patrick is proposing a deMausian view, with a focus on the mother introjects. This merits further research, but in the meantime we can say that existing research by Milburn, Conrad and others has confirmed deMause's view that punitive parenting (by the mother or the father) is a central mechanism for the intergenerational reproduction of authoritarianism (AKA "fascism" in the more general sense), which Adorno et al also concluded (see Milburn and Conrad's 2016 book</span> <i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Raised to Rage</span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">). This Adorno/Milburn approach also focuses on scapegoating of despised outgroups as a central mechanism of fascist/authoritarian psychodynamics. Denis O'Keefe's research uses Altemeyer's Right Wing Authoritarianism scale as a variable predictive of anti-immigrant sentiment among Americans, a case study of scapegoating that figured prominently in the recent midterm elections.</span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Brian,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Your definition of fascism as right wing authoritarianism and delineation of the psychological research on authoritarianism raises some questions to me. If there is right- wing authoritarianism, is there left-wing authoritarianism. If so, what is it, and what are it’s historical manifestation’s, and would that include Stalinism, among others? Would there be authoritarianism outside of political outlooks, such as in organized, dogmatic religions? If authoritarianism crosses boundaries, should not the psychological investigation of authoritarianism then include what leads someone to one kind of authoritarianism rather than another? If so, how does one find that out? Also, how do we ascertain if all those who were followers of Mussolini and Hitler manifested right-wing authoritarianism, and whether or not there were other types of personality who were enthusiastic supporters of these leaders? Another question, does right-wing authoritarianism take somewhat different forms in different times and places? Cultural anthropologists regularly critique American based psychological research as depending on a culturally limited sample and then make generalizations about a phenomenon that does not take into account variations in different kinds of cultures. How do you respond to these last anthropological concerns? <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I do have more questions, but will stop here. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Ken<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Hi Joel. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I don't know that fascist tendencies exist in all of us, because I'm a deMausian, and favour the importance of care and love given to a child so much, that if given amply by parents who have finally had enough love provided to themselves they no longer seek it out of their children, and so genuinely cheer at their progressing beyond them, there is exactly ZERO chance they could even turn fascist. Fascism is regression out of terrible fear of Mother. Without any concept of this, you'll never either stop your own progress forth or think that anyone on the planet has earned their pain. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Your point about democracy being "decadent, " and of how everyone agreed upon it at the time... is something I am thinking of when I argue to expect that republicans and democrats -- both -- will start regressing. I don't ever believe it's about such and such being disproven, or of another way seeming more effective, rational. I think they at the time knew that if this change away from democracy could somehow actually enable GENUINELY more prosperity and, somehow, more individuality... that it was likely overall to encourage, not euphoric happiness, but restive, normal happiness, they would not have "chosen" fascism. They needed to see happiness overall stumped, they needed to see themselves stumped in terms of individuality... for only that way could the ever-looming Mother maybe not see in them the ongoing furtherance of the spoiled individual who so deserved punishment. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Cheers.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Ken,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">First, please note that I am not only giving my own definition. I described how the mainstream of American social science research on authoritarianism grew out of observations of and reflections on and efforts to generalize from European fascism. The question you are asking about left- vs. right-wing authoritarianism was posed in the 1950s in response to Adorno et als</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">The Authoritarian Personality</span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">, the pioneering study in this tradition of research, which critics said incorrectly attributed authoritarianism only to the right. Two new constructs came out of that controversy. </span> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The first was Milton Rokeach's Dogmatism Scale, which probed the personality features associated with closed-mindedness and was explicitly designed not to discriminate between left and right. If you scroll down to Rokeach's typology, which I posted earlier, communism corresponds to left wing authoritarianism and fascism to right wing authoritarianism. What makes them both authoritarian is their aversion to freedom. What differentiates them is that communists highly value equality, while fascists do not. A second new construct was Altemeyer's Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA), which narrowed the focus of authoritarianism research to the right wing. This construct and the many studies that have been conducted using it essentially replicated Adorno et als findings using a revised survey instrument that addressed the methodological shortcomings of Adorno's F-scale. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I do not have time to address all your other questions here, but it is definitely the case that different ideological constructs take different forms in different times and places. Those who conduct psychological survey research explicitly take this into account and in fact provide statistical summaries of the demographic characteristics of their samples so readers can see in what ways and to what extent their findings might be biased in relation to the larger population (defined both geographically and temporally) from which the sample was drawn. While we obviously cannot do surveys of now dead European fascists using the RWA scale, psychohistorical research using the available evidence can and should be informed by the findings of current social science research, in my opinion. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I have written an article entitled "Militarism and the Authoritarian Personality: Displacement, Ideology, and Perceptual Control," currently under peer review by J.A.S.P.E.R., which addresses the psychoanalytic aspects of right wing authoritarianism and relates these to a working model of the human brain using Perceptual Control Theory. Copies of this draft research, not for attribution, are available upon request. In this draft article, I did not explicitly address Ken's question about</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">what leads someone to one kind of authoritarianism rather than another, but I did explicate some of the defense mechanisms associated with right wing authoritarianism, especially male machismo and identification with the aggressor. I think this focus is justified because communism is mostly dead as an historical phenomenon, while fascism (broadly defined as right wing authoritarianism) is alive and well. While we do encounter some authoritarianism on the left, especially in, say, Venezuela and North Korea, and in various left organizations that are not communist, I would argue that authoritarianism is much more relevant to the etiology of right wing ideology than left wing ideology. This is not to say that the left is free from psychological problems, only that authoritarianism is less salient than other complexes for those on the left.</span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Brian</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">http://bdagostino.com/</span></u></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Joel Markowitz</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick,</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I disagree. A source of our disagreement is my disagreement with deMause. He did that excellent book on childhood abuse through history; but I don’t think ANY of his judgements on history— i.e., on collective dynamics— are valid.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Fascism is a collective state that some nations intuitively decide to employ for a number of psychodynamic reasons. The need for a powerful father to control the state is one of them. Many people see no other solution to, for example, economic disparities, or </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">to what they see as other “ injustices.” </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">( I’ve discussed the primary origins of paranoia in individuals on prior posts. )</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">The U.S. won’t go fascist. It’s currently pulling toward that direction, but correctives are mobilizing. We should, of course, help that mobilization in every way we can.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Democracy is very young. It will continue to self-correct from adopting right wing and left wing attitudes for some time to come. </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Joel</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">7:43 AM (8 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I enjoyed reading this, Brian. Thanks for it. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #232323; font-family: Times; font-size: 16pt; letter-spacing: -0.45pt;">Koretz said in a statement, “As we work to increase security at Los Angeles Jewish community institutions in light of the Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue massacre, bringing the SJP conference to Los Angeles in which leaders and members exhort to ‘kill all the Jews’ and ‘stuff some Jews in the oven’ is also a significant threat to public safety. “<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnold Richards MD<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">200 East 89th Street<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">New York, NY 10128<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Phone 6465083398<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Fax 2124270585<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Richards</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">arnoldrichards.net</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">internationalpsychoanalysis.net</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">ipbooks.net</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">david</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 7</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">For a fuller context,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">here's the link for the article that is presumably Arnie is excerpting from.</span></span></u></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #006621; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none;">jewishjournal.com/.../city-council-unanimously-approves-resolution-ucla-cancel-nsjp-...</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #232323; font-size: 18pt; letter-spacing: -0.5pt; padding: 0in;">Koretz said in a statement, “As we work to increase security at Los Angeles Jewish community institutions in light of the Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue massacre, bringing the SJP conference to Los Angeles in which leaders and members exhort to ‘kill all the Jews’ and ‘stuff some Jews in the oven’ is also a significant threat to public safety. “</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Last night I attended an event at the Center for Jewish history honoring Bruce Slovin who was my predecessor as chairman of the board of YIVO and the founder of the center<br /> The mood was somber and Some spoke about getting passports for the children so that they could leave the country if they needed to<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">There was also discussion of which colleges provide a welcoming safe environment for Jewish students<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">mfbrttn</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Just to say: I am so sorry that you and all Jews are subjected to these threats, have been and are the object of such, to me, insane hatred, and to such violence. I am appalled at the references to the holocaust as if it did not exist or is a useful allusion to what to do to Jewish people now. That is so vicious. To be beset with the threat of unpredictable eruptions of murderous attacks does terrible things to the heart and soul and spirit, and I respect the persistence of faith on so many levels in the face of it. I also know that a very great many Americans, and people elsewhere, share my feelings about this and wish they could stand with you literally, like the Muslims did in Canada with their protective circles. My family lives in a small town with three synagogues. I will inquire as to how we might be helpful or supportive.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Michael Britton<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Michael <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I am very very grateful for your support. I will send you an article that I wrote about the muder of European Jews called Doorposts if you think it is of interest <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">please post it on Cleo<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">mfbrttn</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">5:42 AM (10 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Thanks, I'd appreciate that.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">7:41 AM (8 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Pro-Palestinian Jews are amongst the most inspiring people I've encountered. On my twitter feed there's this group, IfNotNow, that opposes Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, that is a delight of empathic individuals, many young. I hope these people are being set up for destruction. That would be what I think is ant-Semitism fundamentally is -- hatred for society's most individuated and emotionally evolved... people, often the youngest and most progressive, who have transgressed, beyond. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">arniedr</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">9:05 AM (7 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I consider myself proPalestinian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I believe that the Palestinians have not been served well buy there leaders since 1948 and certainly not now<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">They have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">They were given an opportunity to have a vibrant viable community in Gaza and the first thing they did was destroy all the green houses that the Israelis had built which provided revenue and and jobs for the Palestinians Then elected how much that was committed to the distraction of the state of Israel<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">10:05 AM (6 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Thanks for responding, Arnie. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">The last time I heard "never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity," was made in reference to Black South Africans by White South Africans before Apartheid. It sounds awful... children who can't govern themselves. I'm not as interested in the fact of governship... or of any facts that can't be seen by progressives because it messes up a need to project a certain drama upon the world they regrettably still require in order to function overall truly progressively, that may be seen in our powerfully regressing environment as simply, TRUE, unless they aren't weaponized. Almost always these days, these truths are, are weaponized... acts, with some aspects of "truth," proudly paraded forward as if finally well-meaning but ultimately obfuscatory and entangling ideologies have lost their several-decade-long sway, ONLY because they inhibit people in the world who, in a way it becomes easier and easier to denigrate and stigmatize, are the ones pushing for advancements in emotional health and consciousness which will enable less and less projection and more and more truly honest seeing. It's getting easier and easier to stigmatize... to demonize the ACTUALLY TRULY GOOD -- witness U of Chicago "defiance" against "anti-free speachers" -- people, who are almost always lead by the young. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Third and last post for the day. I wish you well. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">10:27 AM (6 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">You have not responded to the substance of what I said. You responded to one “and essentially changed the subject The subject is the terrible treatment of the Palestinians by their leaders the takeover of Gaza by Hamas that is committed to the destruction of the state of Israel and throws Palestinians off rooftops and fires rockets at Israel and uses to civilians as human shields<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The only solution is a two state solution <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Joel Markowitz</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">10:46 AM (5 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">But you realize, Arnie, that you’re heavily biased.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">You’e right in that the Palestinians have been very unwise in their rhetoric and terroristic actions. You overlook the extreme hardships that they have suffered because the right-wing Israeli government has REFUSED a two-state solution, and has</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">been oppressive in many other ways.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">You can’t explain-away the planting of Israeli settlements on what is rightly Palestinian land …</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Were I a Palestinian, I would have behaved in a more-practical way. I would have accepted the ongoing existence of Israel and would have avoided terroristic actions that justify Israeli defensive measures— and that permit additional violence.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I would also hate Israel. But I’d be more practical in the way I dealt with— and mentioned— such feelings.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">10:54 AM (5 hours ago)</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">You and I are not going to solve this problem which is why I only respond to messages and don’t bring up the subject myself <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I think you and Patrick are biased as well <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Biased people should still be able to have a conversation as long as they are open about their background their history how their opinions came about and what their biases are based on <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Alice Maher</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sorry if I seem to be popping in out of nowhere. Arnie asked if I might try to mediate. I must admit that I haven't read the details of these conversations because I've been way too busy, but I think I get the idea. Please forgive me if I'm off base.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">First of all, I like Arnie's last line, "Biased people should still be able to have a conversation as long as they are open about their background their history how their opinions came about and what their biases are based on." It reminds me of Aristotle's line, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">One of the problems getting in the way is not just the content of our biased arguments, but the style - the way we express ourselves. During my years hosting dialogue forums, I noticed that a significant subgroup of people present their beliefs with links that basically communicate "this is bad, period, full stop." That tends to lead to a split rather than a discussion, because it puts the other person in the position of simply agreeing with them, or disagreeing in a strident way that can come across as accusatory.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">If we're going to bridge that divide, we need to create a "play space" within which real dialogue can emerge. Let's share our biases, share how they emerged from our personal histories, and tolerate listening to the biases of others. We're all biased, because we all have identities that serve as a protective skin. Changing that is slow, and it's very hard work. Both sides need to want to expand their understanding rather than listen to themselves fine-tune the same old arguments that only they and their choirs can hear.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Does that make any sense?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Alice<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">We're all biased, because we all have identities that serve as a protective skin.</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">We do? How do you know this? I personally think this is false. I don't think we're all in need of protective skins. Our age is becoming one where the Right is using this idea of "free speech," "being open to others' ideas," "an open market of ideas," in order to make the Left seem intolerant; only interested in power. Right now, they are identified with, THEY OWN this dialogue, oddly enough, while the Left owns the dialogue of "do not do this; you MUST stop now." Given the Right is, not exactly being CONSCIOUSLY duplicitous, but will be shown to have used this ostensible effort to create bridges, "free speech" environments, only to martial in "truths" that the Left HAS repressed while they essentially owned the space for "legitimate" ideas, in order to completely disenfranchise them and set them up as over-due for pretty much nothing less than extermination, I think the impetus now is for the good to legitimize, not the "let's listen to different takes" point of view, but rather the "this is bad, full stop. stop now. full stop. or we'll come to your homes and scream at you", point of view. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I understand this doesn't sound therapeutic, but I think it's sound. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Dear all,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I think it is correct that we all have biases, but agree with Patrick's point that not all biases are symmetrical. I think Alice's intervention is timely and apt. I have already expressed my views about the limits of conflict transformation, and what I have to say here needs to be understood in that light. My bias is that I detest right wing governments, and in this time of resurgent fascism, that includes many governments including those in power in India, Hungary, Israel, Brazil, and the United States to cite only a few examples. I come to this bias as a result of wrestling psychoanalytically with my authoritarian father introjects since college. My father was born in Calabria in 1920 and came to this country in 1926. He quickly became successful in business and became a right wing Republican. Although fighting in World War II in the South Pacific, he admired Mussolini, and thought Il Duce would have made Italy great again if only he hadn't gotten mixed up with Hitler. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">In college in the early 70s, as a result of psychological transformation facilitated by Jungian psychotherapy and experimentation with LSD, I overthrew my father introjects and charted a course for my life that diverged from the corporate lawyer life script my father had envisioned for me. This transformation included becoming a democratic socialist. As I indicated in my typology of ideology drawn from Milton Rokeach, this meant going from an ideology that viewed freedom and equality negatively to one that views both these core values positively. I later also learned that I needed to appropriate certain positive qualities that my father embodied, including his courage and perseverance. I would have dreams about being attacked by mafiosi, another form of my father introjects, and learned to master my fear of these inner demons and appropriate the positive potential they embodied, which for me was the key to appropriating some of the personal power I had abdicated when I rejected my father in college.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">As for political discussions, I see a pattern in which defenders of right wing regimes weaponize accusations of bigotry against their opponents as a way of suppressing legitimate political dissent. I spent about six hours researching the UCLA controversy that Arnie posted about and conclude it is credible that some members of the Palestinian rights group (SFJ) that wants to speak on campus have expressed anti-Semitic views, but it is also credible that people with a pro Netanyahu agenda want to discredit them and prevent them from criticizing right wing Israeli policies. I have seen too many instances of right wing activists lying about their opponents and falsely attributing outrageous statements to them; I therefore do not automatically give credence to such allegations. The internet right now is also a Wild West in which outrageous accusations that originate on malicious websites end up getting traction in mainstream venues like</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Jewish Journal</span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">, one of whose columnists is Ben Shapiro, hardly a responsible pundit in my book. What is really occurring in UCLA is an empirical question that should be investigated. I cannot justify spending more time getting to the bottom of this, and I wonder how much time Arnie has spent vetting these very serious allegations.</span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Brian</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">arniedr</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Alice <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Makes a lot of sense to me <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">My position is that there should be a space for biased Zionists and a space biased anti-Zionists but no space for those who shout kill the Jews and Jews to the gas chamber<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I agree, Arnie. But why do you give automatic credence to accusations of genocidal hate speech when such accusations are frequently being wielded as a political weapon by people who are willing to lie about their political opponents in order to suppress their right to speak? How much time have you spent vetting the veracity of the UCLA allegations? --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I note that Brian does not include among his list of right wing governments any from the Middle East other than Israel <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">My source about the SJP come from what is in print the LA city council resolution my friends and colleagues in LA and my grandson who graduated from UCLA film school in June <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I will now brag. He had a film in the LA film festival and music video to commemorate the Armenian genocide has had over 3 million hits He was the cinematographer<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Also yesterday was the 80th anniversary of Kristallnacht it’s interesting that I couldn’t find any mention of that event in either at the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal I may have missed them<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie has <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Nov 10</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">re: but no space for those who shout kill the Jews and Jews to the gas chamber</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Sure. But also no space for those who make use of the fact that some groups that are more for peace and love and tending than anyone happen to have people who can be made to seem associated with them who do say things like this, as "tag-alongs," in order to specifically target THEM -- the most progressive of young people out there: the people THEY ACTUALLY hate the most, for delegitimizing old previously fully workable ways to project hate. Democrats stand for the opposite of Farrakhan, for example, but the fact that they are in a bind not to be able to completely distance themselves from him, is used by Republicans to suggest either that anti-Semiticism is actually most with them or that they're ultimately interested only in power, and that Zionism is ACTUALLY where those most pro-Jewish "reside." </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: Inflammatory ?<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie, your point about other right wing governments in the Middle East is well taken. Maybe you were thinking of Iran. Two that come to my mind immediately are Egypt and Saudi Arabia. They are currently allies of Israel, of course. I do not approve of the regime in Tehran, but do think the Iran Nuclear Deal was a lot better than nothing and that Trump's and Netanyahu's policies are making Israel less, not more, secure. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I have always supported Israel's right to exist and feel particularly good about Israel when the populace manages to elect labor governments. I also do not think it is entirely the fault of the populace that there is a right wing government in power there now. Right wing governments enjoy disproportionate support from the rich, from big corporations, and from the military, which tend to dwarf the opinions and preferences of ordinary citizens, whether Israelis, Americans, Egyptians, or citizens of any other country.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">This is my third and last post for the day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Brian</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">bdagostino.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-74660451216860213342018-11-15T04:05:00.001-08:002018-11-15T04:05:18.141-08:00Clio's Psyche, after conference, #2<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="MsoNormalTable" style="color: black; width: 910px;"><tbody>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Aug 24</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Just thinking on how</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Lloyd described Bill Clinton: "</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #444444; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">He has many of the characteristics of what Robert Tucker calls the "warfare personality"–self-dramatization, extreme narcissism, repeated feelings of conspiracies against him by enemies and an ability to call for a great Crusade that will defeat Evil abroad and cleanse the world of its sinfulness. I would only add to these: a deep well of loneliness, frequent revenge fantasies and an ability to dissociate."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #444444; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">And on this bit from the same article: "Staffers warned Clinton daily not to risk another "bimbo eruption" lest he be caught this time. Yet Clinton, sensing the group-fantasy of sacrifice was asking him to volunteer as the victim, started the affair nonetheless, looking out the White House windows while he was being sexually serviced by her to see if Starr’s snoopers were looking in."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #444444; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">And on what happened to his polling numbers as he admitted to his crimes: "The "Sacrificial Hero" was turned into a god himself since he, like Clinton, had willingly volunteered to be sacrificed. Thus Clinton’s polls, which had been sub-par until his affair was revealed, soared to over 70 percent approval "for the job he was doing for his country"–in other words, for being a sacrificial scapegoat, a poison container for our guilt–an approval level never before reached by a peacetime president."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #444444; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">This, to me, is interesting psychohistory. It argues for our at least considering that when for example the New Yorker shows on its cover hounds now on to Trump himself's scent, it can still all be, the service the media is offering the public, about putting the president into a position where he executes some function necessary to resolve something for the rest of us... it can be about a set-up for his actually ultimately increasing his poll numbers (down... is actually up). For Clinton it was about taking into himself all the hubris that everyone else was feeling; for Trump it could be about demonstrating that resolving yourself to devote yourself entirely to your homeland, to nationalism, to a return to mother, will in fact render you bullet-proof against all your previous sins... this is something the American people might want to know about itself, as they start feeling out how much "ask" they should be making as they, too, regress into nationalism, but have on mind, also, everything they've ever ventured that went past what their parents would have assessed as tolerable. We'll find out, does talking borders to protect your homeland; talking up industries, imagined almost as biological organs, thought to be associated with a once vital national body; talking up protecting innocent women from rape by infidels; talking up the ideals of service, of sacrifice (for the leader; for the homeland), of the military; talking up the idea of your nation as always great, make you bullet-proof against retribution for all your past inclinations and sins? Do we allow and encourage this test of him, so "we" can know for sure how emboldened "we" should be as set about becoming "our" own version of the German Volk. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Trevor Pederson</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Aug 24</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Hi Patrick<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">How hard of a line do you want to take here?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Would you be open to the idea that there are many narratives that could have been formed around Clinton or did it have to be that one?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Also the way that people perceived Clinton's sin as a public vs. private life distinction, a distinction that saw more assimilation of gays and lesbians during that time too, was a frame that has its own genesis too.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I find it hard to see Clinton as any self-conscious sacrificial hero. I'd say his actions were closer to self-sabotage, but even if we see him that way, then like other scapegoats he should have been crucified or hurt in some major way. He got to stay in as president. Maybe one could argue that the impeachment vote was a major disgrace and a symbolic death, but I don't have a strong feeling for that either.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Personally, I see Clinton's story as a betrayal story in which he moves to "the center" and appeases Republicans and that they then try to cut his throat and show that they aren't satisfied with inching the political center further to the right, but want it all.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Trevor <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></u><br />---</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Aug 24</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Hi Trevor, </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I'm arguing that we make use of the history of psychohistorical research to be aware that what a public wants out of his/her president, isn't always what we would expect. How could one actually want a president whom one is ultimately interested in supporting, actually be forced by persecutors into agreeing that he has sinned?; to be successfully pinned down? Lloyd argued that was actually Bill Clinton's means of securing success, his way to enlarged popularity. This is a fascinating proposal, and I think one to keep in mind as we sense the hounds finally catching on to Trump's scent. Might he eventually say, you know what, I WAS working with the Russians. I'll take that on... because Putin is doing for his nation what I intend to do for our own: make it great. But now that I've done so, it's time to talk about what the Democrats have themselves done, and see exactly where we want to settle; whether we want me out, us both out -- or really only more traitorous THEM, the Democrats who actually hate the deplorable American public, and who would have found some way to down anyone who finally spoke up for what they've been saying they've wanted for years..." And the public gauges that he's done his bit, and fair play means now the Democrats get examined... with THEIR being the ones decimated, being the result they actually want to see, for their knowing Democrats equal guilty freedom and self-attendance rather than self-punishment. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">What Democrats won't let themselves know, but which is true, and which the public senses is true, is that once Trump got elected in there was no way that we wouldn't be in the position we are in now, whether or not he had partaken in any traitorous behaviour or not; whether he had been involved with Russia, or not. This lead-in to him seeming precariously settled... is exactly what the public wanted to see happen: the Democratic investigators are a delegate group, helping to force a test on our president, which'll lead to many of our feeling less inhabited by sin. This is mostly deMausian thinking, I believe. If Trump remains stronger a year from now, this might serve for some to take up his research again, because it's the only research I know that would suggest that the best Democrat strategy -- if they could only have resisted the public's urge for them to serve as delegate group -- might have been actually to not close in on Trump as a traitor, for it's a ritual that'll make him fantasied as invulnerable at the finish, and which'll take them to the wasteland. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I'm saying this now because it seems especially absurd, but really is what I expect will happen. Psychohistory can predict?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Hi Partrick<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I'm arguing that we make use of the history of psychohistorical research to be aware that what a public wants out of his/her president, isn't always what we would expect. How could one actually want a president whom one is ultimately interested in supporting, actually be forced by persecutors into agreeing that he has sinned?; to be successfully pinned down?</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I see many factors and many subjectivities expressed here. Because of Trump's private life, many statements from Republicans in Clinton's time have come up to show hypocrisy. For many people on the right, Clinton was an expression of immoral sleaze and the president was supposed to be a beacon of morality (the good dad) and he didn't show himself worthy of this. The message on the political left wasn't the same. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The public is fickle and the government often releases information on weekends knowing that the public will be busy and not follow it as closely. Even when such narratives stick they only get a few news cycles before they are too old to be the news. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I can see people on the right wanting Clinton pinned down and for him to be impeached, but I also think that he became the underdog, who admitted he had a problem and was flawed and deserved a chance, for those on the left. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">As long as you agree that there are different subjectivities, in opposition, and that there are several stories that could take root as THE story, then I can agree that the public wants a story with their current president/parent. The question then becomes what are the factors that make THE story become the dominant one and that's where technology changing our social interactions and the money that the elite spend on focus grouping, spinners, etc. to have an effect.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Lloyd argued that was actually Bill Clinton's means of securing success, his way to enlarged popularity. This is a fascinating proposal, and I think one to keep in mind as we sense the hounds finally catching on to Trump's scent. Might he eventually say, you know what, I WAS working with the Russians. I'll take that on... because Putin is doing for his nation what I intend to do for our own: make it great. But now that I've done so, it's time to talk about what the Democrats have themselves done, and see exactly where we want to settle; whether we want me out, us both out -- or really only more traitorous THEM, the Democrats who actually hate the deplorable American public, and who would have found some way to down anyone who finally spoke up for what they've been saying they've wanted for years..." And the public gauges that he's done his bit, and fair play means now the Democrats get examined... with THEIR being the ones decimated, being the result they actually want to see, for their knowing Democrats equal guilty freedom and self-attendance rather than self-punishment. </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I've had the intuition for a while that the Republicans will do a lot of unpopular stuff, then turn on Trump and distance themselves from him, the policies that they will pin on him (but actually do nothing to change after Trump is out), and ask for a moral renewal. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I can't see Trump winning back the left, he's too grandiose, unable to admit mistakes, and won't let himself become the underdog for them. Additionally, the wealthy elite don't want to take things to an authoritarian model, and will just flirt with protectionism in order to keep power when they want the neoliberal model to ensure their companies can continue to conquer new markets and find the cheapest labor.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">What Democrats won't let themselves know, but which is true, and which the public senses is true, is that once Trump got elected in there was no way that we wouldn't be in the position we are in now, whether or not he had partaken in any traitorous behaviour or not; whether he had been involved with Russia, or not. This lead-in to him seeming precariously settled... is exactly what the public wanted to see happen: the Democratic investigators are a delegate group, helping to force a test on our president, which'll lead to many of our feeling less inhabited by sin. This is mostly deMausian thinking, I believe. If Trump remains stronger a year from now, this might serve for some to take up his research again, because it's the only research I know that would suggest that the best Democrat strategy -- if they could only have resisted the public's urge for them to serve as delegate group -- might have been actually to not close in on Trump as a traitor, for it's a ritual that'll make him fantasied as invulnerable at the finish, and which'll take them to the wasteland. </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I can agree that for many passive-altruists I work with, there is a bad romantic partner, bad boss, or bad friend who is selfish, mean to them, and with whom they are submissive and accepting of the pain they are given. Some go further than just enduring the bad object but enjoy masochistic complaining about him/her but don't make serious attempts to extricate themselves from the situation. If the Republicans don't turn on Trump themselves I worry that the Democrats will be impotent. The left won't be on board with the authoritarian Trump taking us to glory unless its a defensive thing that comes up on War and the right sows enough fear to make the left look for protection. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I'm saying this now because it seems especially absurd, but really is what I expect will happen. Psychohistory can predict?</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The whole point of Nietzsche, Marx, and Freud is to be able to predict things. Nietzsche had his over-man and the last man, Marx had communism, and Freud has a depth structure that points to common structures behind particular mental illnesses. I'd like to think we can get to the point of prediction, but the state of things is still more shadow than light. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Paul asked me to supply for the group any thoughts I might have on "The Psychohistorian's Handbook." I'm sorry to say, I really have only one... or one so predominant that it seems to dissolve anything other that I was noticing while exploring the text. I was delighted by the extent to which the handbook assumes one might be interested in really deep exploration of psychoanalysis. You can date the book by this... here is a book dating back to an era where psychoanalysis was sufficiently esteemed that it was expected to be part of the knowledge-equipage of anyone truly educated. NYRB sort of thing, where one page is recondite exploration of, say, Lincoln, and next page is extensive essay on Freud. Given that at one point ostensibly anyone who considers him/herself the liberal intelligent -- or the conservative intelligent -- knew Freud, it made sense to assume that perhaps every discipline might be a natural home for deep involvement of his ideas... and so the strong push into History, English... whatever: each as ripe as the other. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I think now, though, when Freud is dismissed, when there isn't so much perversions of Freud, not so much astray psychobabble but the whole edifice as charlatanism, no less in its most estimable form, it's especially important to take note of those outposts where... nevertheless, he has hasn't quite been abandoned; where the resistance is and has been maintained. So when we hear of how Lacan is still dense in English studies, or of how those in creative writing classes are engaged with 20th-century novels heavily influenced by psychoanalysis, I think we are being reminded that in our time we can't assume as much that every discipline is attracting the same sort of person but only of differing areas of interest, but, perhaps, of different sorts of people -- some more emotionally open, and some less so. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">I know from Beisel's description of his students' interest in psychohistory, and from hearing how popular his courses on psychohistory are, it seems perhaps to many in the psychohistory community that this isn't so -- that history has not actually been demonstrated as more "conservative," inherently, as more the best representation of our refutation, than, say, psychology or English studies. I admit I wish this ostensibly demonstrated truth was more warred against because usually the courses I hear he is teaching are on WW2, and I just promise you, these days, the people I think would most be able to explore their own selves and not so much use their studies as part of their equipage in defence of early childhood experiences -- History as masculine buttress against mom? -- won't let themselves be so immersed in the rat-tat-tat tank battles of that... more likely, they'll be found reading the novels of Zadie Smith. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">In English studies, I remember Geoffrey Hartmann suggested that rather than critical analysis being something studied along with the English texts, it should be seen as primary... that one should study theory, and collect into it subject matter from everywhere. I think we need to find out where the healthiest students are, see if there is a discipline which is proving the most automatic home for them -- maybe gender studies as well? -- and forge our newly updated Psychohistorian's Handbook based on the environment these people have proven most comfortable with. From whatever they've been interested in, we offer branchings-off, to where, who knows?, one might find oneself discussing areas History is more automatically engaged with. So if the new hipsters are reading Dave Eggers and loving him, psychohistory involves themselves very deep with him, in textual analysis of his books, but also of the history of the regions of the world he himself has become so incredibly involved with -- the lost boys' Sudan, Zeitoun's Syria. If the healthiest students are interested in psychology, then we acknowledge "them" as primary, as home, offering ourselves as extensions, not us as more-ranging-and-tempered-by-experience rebuttal. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Right now, I think the book misleads in that it suggests forging ahead as we have, when it is informed by an aberration of pattern where history really was as open to what we are hoping for with the involvement of psychoanalysis in studying our cultures as any other discipline. When we've re-routed and glued to students who'll carry us along in the way we should hope, I then think the handbook will serve more as a rich link to a community of deep-thinking men and women who've in the past linked psychology to historical developments in very engaging and fruitful ways. I think, then, people will discover here the marvel of people going so enchantingly deep into material -- anyone who read all the recommended texts in this book, would be impossibly deep -- the book will show that there is something to rediscover, in how we used to be. There is: we have lost depth. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Any ideas, Ken, how to affect Trump and the Trump supporters so they actually do something to limit racism and violence?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Judy</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="FR" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.goldilox.net</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; padding: 0in;"><u><span lang="FR" style="border: none; color: blue;">www.shAIRing.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u> <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ken Fuchsman<br /><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 28, 2018 5:55 AM<br /><b>To:</b> <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br /><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cliospsyche] bombing suspect found a father in Trump<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Arnie,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Since 1968, with the exception of George W. Bush, every successful Republican Presidential candidate has run on a southern strategy of appealing to white racists. Trump has just been more overt and demagogic about it than most of the other Republicans. As we know, anti-semitism has long been part of white supremacists outlook. I think Trump’s long history shows he is racist, but I don’t see much anti-semitism in him. Outside of his father, the most influential male in his life was Jewish, Roy Cohn. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">There is no question good people don’t chant “Jews will not replace us.” Nor do good people tolerate chants of “Lock her up” or “CNN sucks” at their demagogic rallies. As a nation, we are in dangerous times, especially when such a high percentage of the American electorate support a President who encourages anger, prejudice, and violence regularly, and don’t care that he undermines the Constitution and the laws of the land. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Oct 28, 2018, at 1:01 AM, arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Trump needs needs to reject the support from the anti Semitic extremists who say they support him even if they are part off his base</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Good people dont chant "jews will not replace us"</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: Alice Maher <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicelmaher@gmail.com</span></span></u>><br />To: cliospsyche <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>><br />Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2018 7:00 am<br />Subject: Re: [cliospsyche] bombing suspect found a father in Trump</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I just wrote this on my Facebook page - the public one that I use to advertise my book. Curious what the group's reaction is.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Yesterday was very intense. With everything going on, how could I possibly "take the side of" Trump supporters?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Before I explain, I need to clarify something. I am attempting to do what I do in my psychoanalytic practice - position myself between opposing forces, stand firm, and move back and forth with the goal of inviting warring sides to begin to come together. It's called "internal conflict resolution" within an individual. I maintain that the same process is possible within society.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">We have warring groups, and they're not understanding each other or coming together. One side will win 51% of the vote for a couple of years, but that's not resolving anything.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On my personal page, I made the mistake of allying with the left to the point where the right disappeared. I'm still in touch with those people, and over time I came to understand their perspective much more than I ever had. Yea, they came on strong and sounded bullying and mean. But they had something they needed to say, and no one was hearing them.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Since they're not here (or here and not talking), I'm trying to identify with them and explain something about where they're coming from. That doesn't mean I'm on their side, nor does it mean I'm on the other side. I'm trying damn hard not to take a side, because I sincerely believe that both sides are flawed.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">So why did I/they say that the left is hypocritical? Because of the way they're so quick to label people on the right with language that can feel to them like being called the N word. They're racists! They're Nazis! If you're going to go there, fine. But then don't talk about how lovey-dovey we need to be with all people, no matter what sex, gender, race, religion and culture. How about people with different ways of thinking? Maybe some of them on the extreme ends are mentally ill - that deserves empathy too - but maybe they just have very powerful beliefs about the importance of individual freedom, the role of government, and the fact that a fetus is just as alive as you are.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">If you want to communicate with them, go there. Don't tell them they're stupid, crazy or evil. As a psychiatrist, I know damn well that when you think of someone that way, they'll act out that fantasy.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Am I making any sense?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:25 PM Brian D'Agostino <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span></span></u>> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">The former attorney of the bombing suspect's family told Anderson Cooper that Cesar Sayoc had been abandoned by his Filipino father and found a father in Trump. Here is the interview:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/10/26/bombing-suspect-sayoc-ron-lowy-attorney-ac360-intv-vpx.cnn</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Brian</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 13.5pt;">bdagostino.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On 10/24/2018 5:38 AM, Dr Judith Logue wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Thx, Brian..</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">If you did not see Rachel Maddow’s show last night, please Google it.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br />Judy </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br />On Oct 24, 2018, at 5:15 AM, Brian D'Agostino <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span></span></u>> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Dear all,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">The top story on the CNN website today is an article by Stephen Collinson entitled "Trump is at the top of his dangerous game as midterms loom:"</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/24/politics/donald-trump-midterms-immigration-oval-office/index.html</span></span></u> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><br /><br />Collinson suggests, among other things, that Trump is proactively shaping the midterm election into a referendum on immigration using the so called "caravan" coming from Central America as a bogyman to stoke fear and prejudice. This is a high-stakes game indeed and no-one has a crystal ball. The big unknown that will determine which party ends up controlling the House is turnout of registered voters. In "our" ideal (perhaps fantasy) scenario, Trump may inadvertently achieve for the Democrats something they couldn't achieve for themselves, namely energizing Latino voters, who vote disproportionately Democratic. On the other hand, his framing of the midterms as an anti-immigrant moment may succeed in keeping Republican women in the fold and getting them out to vote, over-riding the anti-Kavanaugh sentiment that had threatened to upend GOP hopes on November 6. As I see it, control of the House (and possibly the Senate) may depend on the relative strength of these two effects.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><br /><br />For better or for worse, we'll know what happens in less than two weeks. For us as psychohistorians, however, the upshot of the above analysis is that there is no monolithic national group fantasy but rather distinct and often conflicting psychoclasses, some numerically larger than others, and each with their own hot-button issues. We need to understand the political process in terms of the complex resonances and effects--intended and unintended--that Trump's or any other leader's actions have on this divided electorate.<br /><br />Brian<br /><br /><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino.com </span></span></u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></u><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></u>.<br />For more options, visit <u><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Alice Maher</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Hi Judy, Ken and Brian,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I just posted this on Facebook. Since it addresses some of your questions, I thought I'd share it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">____________<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Yesterday, a member of this group wondered what mental illness has to do with it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">As a psychiatrist, a would say a lot. Often what's presented as a "hate crime" is a paranoid individual who has focused on one group as a target for reasons that have more to do with their internal psychotic reality than the dynamics of prejudice.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">That said, when it happens, it happens for complex reasons that do have to do with social forces.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Here's how I think about it, in an abstract way.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Imagine a person, usually a man, who is struggling with internal demons including massive rage. Maybe he's hearing voices telling him to kill, or maybe it involves another kind of delusional system. Maybe there's a person or group that haunt his imagination and make him convinced that they need to die so that he can save himself and the world. Maybe it's a way to commit suicide-by-cop in a grand manner.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">When those people emerge from within a cult, you need to look in two places - 1) the compelling force of the cult leader, and 2) the childhood traumas, misunderstandings, abuses and rejections that, added to problematic brain chemistry, lead to a very fragile psyche containing a great deal of rage.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">In the hypothetical model I'm imagining, Trump is the cult leader, and the democrats are the traumatizing, oblivious parents who continually exhort that child to be something he can't be; to think and feel in a way that's impossible for him. The cult leader is compelling because he fills that space.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">If we're going to address that problem, we need to look at BOTH directions AT THE SAME TIME.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Alice<br />Author: Catalysis: A Recipe to Slow Down or Abort Humankind's Leap to War<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">YES!👍👍👍<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judy<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">609-915-9155, cell<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Maybe democrats as -- pushing for individualism and self-actualization: what actually generated the most profound traumas in their lives, with it incurring maternal rejection -- bad selves, rather than bad parents. Parent, more frequently now projected onto nation -- hence, rise in pride in being nationalistic. Trump as foremost servant/delegate OF parent nation. Eliminating selves which contain "your" "bad" attributes, leaves the nation cleansed so "you" feel pure, and garners mother nation's approval. It's easy for me to see democrats as representing a child's "selfish" individuation from the mother, as all Trump supporters knew SOMETHING of individuation during the rapprochement stage -- the first time they came to understand it as the foremost thing they could do to ensure their abandonment/rejection, for their mothers understanding it as their deliberate abandonment of her. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">For the democrat to be as well/or primarily their own snubbing parent... is certainly possible too: someone has to represent the split-off "bad mother." I'm reminded of DeMause's writings on how Hitler/Germans split off the "bad mother" onto England and France, hoping more to command Her respect than destroy Her, but projected "bad selves" onto Jews/Russia/Poland, with the intention only of annihilation. If both "democrats" and "Jews" represent "sinful" self-actualization, why does one only consider the possibility that "democrats" could be both the "bad selves" and "bad mother"?; why couldn't "Jews" serve the same dual role? Democrats have become "foreign" too, with their being designated globalists... but maybe this is the mother who finds someone else, someone other than YOU, actually worth their attendance, reinforcing their status as actually-experienced, spurning parent, whose respect and love "you" ultimately hope to claim. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">This would be the relevant bit from DeMause. Taken from Emotional Life of Nations: </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; padding: 0in;">The path to war, however, did not begin with the killing of Bad Boy "useless eaters" to the East. Indeed, Hitler temporarily made a Nonaggression Pact with Russia and attempted to extend it to Poland. Germany's first task was </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype,Italic"; padding: 0in;">righteous rape</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; padding: 0in;">, the knocking of Mother England off her pedestal and, while still wooing her, teaching her a lesson of how she must stop humiliating Germans by rejecting their courtship. Nazi diplomatic language dripped of maternal imagery for the two Western nations, as when Goering asked, "Why should France continue to tie herself to a decayed old nation like England--a rouged old maid trying to pretend that she is still young and vigorous."</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; font-size: 7pt; padding: 0in; position: relative; top: -3pt;">440 </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; padding: 0in;">Hitler believed that war would teach England a lesson and make her respect Germany, predicting that "the end of the war will mark the beginning of a durable friendship with England. But first we must give her the K.O.-- for only so can we live at peace with her, and the Englishman can only respect someone who has first knocked him out."</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; font-size: 7pt; padding: 0in; position: relative; top: -3pt;">441 </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; padding: 0in;">Mother England, after all, was a "purely Germanic nation" who, like a good German mother, ruled over her children (colonies) with an iron fist.</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; font-size: 7pt; padding: 0in; position: relative; top: -3pt;">442 </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; padding: 0in;">Germany had to rape her to dominate and really have her, but, Hitler said, "This doesn't prevent me from admiring [the English]. They have a lot to teach us."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Trump needs needs to reject the support from the anti Semitic extremists who say they support him even if they are part off his base<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Good people dont chant "jews will not replace us"<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: Alice Maher <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">alicelmaher@gmail.com</span></span></u>><br />To: cliospsyche <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>><br />Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2018 7:00 am<br />Subject: Re: [cliospsyche] bombing suspect found a father in Trump<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I just wrote this on my Facebook page - the public one that I use to advertise my book. Curious what the group's reaction is.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Yesterday was very intense. With everything going on, how could I possibly "take the side of" Trump supporters?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Before I explain, I need to clarify something. I am attempting to do what I do in my psychoanalytic practice - position myself between opposing forces, stand firm, and move back and forth with the goal of inviting warring sides to begin to come together. It's called "internal conflict resolution" within an individual. I maintain that the same process is possible within society.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">We have warring groups, and they're not understanding each other or coming together. One side will win 51% of the vote for a couple of years, but that's not resolving anything.</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On my personal page, I made the mistake of allying with the left to the point where the right disappeared. I'm still in touch with those people, and over time I came to understand their perspective much more than I ever had. Yea, they came on strong and sounded bullying and mean. But they had something they needed to say, and no one was hearing them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Since they're not here (or here and not talking), I'm trying to identify with them and explain something about where they're coming from. That doesn't mean I'm on their side, nor does it mean I'm on the other side. I'm trying damn hard not to take a side, because I sincerely believe that both sides are flawed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">So why did I/they say that the left is hypocritical? Because of the way they're so quick to label people on the right with language that can feel to them like being called the N word. They're racists! They're Nazis! If you're going to go there, fine. But then don't talk about how lovey-dovey we need to be with all people, no matter what sex, gender, race, religion and culture. How about people with different ways of thinking? Maybe some of them on the extreme ends are mentally ill - that deserves empathy too - but maybe they just have very powerful beliefs about the importance of individual freedom, the role of government, and the fact that a fetus is just as alive as you are.</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">If you want to communicate with them, go there. Don't tell them they're stupid, crazy or evil. As a psychiatrist, I know damn well that when you think of someone that way, they'll act out that fantasy.</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Am I making any sense?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 11:25 PM Brian D'Agostino <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.<span style="border: none;">com</span></span></span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">The former attorney of the bombing suspect's family told Anderson Cooper that Cesar Sayoc had been abandoned by his Filipino father and found a father in Trump. Here is the interview:</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/10/26/bombing-suspect-sayoc-ron-lowy-attorney-ac360-intv-vpx.cnn</span></u></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Brian</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino.com</span></span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On 10/24/2018 5:38 AM, Dr Judith Logue wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Thx, Brian..<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">If you did not see Rachel Maddow’s show last night, please Google it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br />Judy <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">609-915-9155, cell<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">www.judithlogue.com</span></span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br />On Oct 24, 2018, at 5:15 AM, Brian D'Agostino <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span></span></u>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">Dear all,</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;">The top story on the CNN website today is an article by Stephen Collinson entitled "Trump is at the top of his dangerous game as midterms loom:"</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/24/politics/donald-trump-midterms-immigration-oval-office/index.html</span></span></u> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><br />Collinson suggests, among other things, that Trump is proactively shaping the midterm election into a referendum on immigration using the so called "caravan" coming from Central America as a bogyman to stoke fear and prejudice. This is a high-stakes game indeed and no-one has a crystal ball. The big unknown that will determine which party ends up controlling the House is turnout of registered voters. In "our" ideal (perhaps fantasy) scenario, Trump may inadvertently achieve for the Democrats something they couldn't achieve for themselves, namely energizing Latino voters, who vote disproportionately Democratic. On the other hand, his framing of the midterms as an anti-immigrant moment may succeed in keeping Republican women in the fold and getting them out to vote, over-riding the anti-Kavanaugh sentiment that had threatened to upend GOP hopes on November 6. As I see it, control of the House (and possibly the Senate) may depend on the relative strength of these two effects.</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><br />For better or for worse, we'll know what happens in less than two weeks. For us as psychohistorians, however, the upshot of the above analysis is that there is no monolithic national group fantasy but rather distinct and often conflicting psychoclasses, some numerically larger than others, and each with their own hot-button issues. We need to understand the political process in terms of the complex resonances and effects--intended and unintended--that Trump's or any other leader's actions have on this divided electorate.<br /><br />Brian<br /><br /><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino.com </span></span></u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;"> </span></span></span></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/<span style="border: none;">cliospsyche</span></span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span></u><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">htt<span style="border: none;">p://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span></span></u><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span></u>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Click here to</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"> Reply</span><span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Yes, I agree Arnie. I wonder what Jared Kushner is telling him. But I am not holding my breath; Trump does not listen to informed advice and makes it a badge of honor to act on his "gut," which is fascist. Besides, even if he listened to his son-in-law, what would Kushner tell him? Do the right thing, or stay the course because the majority of American Jews didn't vote for you, and AIPAC and Shelden Adelson are not going to go to the mat over this? Let's not forget that it was Kushner who gave Trump the brilliant advice to fire James Comey. This is what corruption looks like. AIPAC and the Adelson types have made their devil's bargain with Trump like all his other supporters and are on a roll. Do you really think they are going to let the massacre of a few innocent people get in the way of making America and Israel great again? Well, I guess we'll see.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Current Events and Psychohistory<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Reply to Brian:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">You make complete sense in all your posts, especially about the multiple determinants - as do Arnie and Alice and many others.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Brian, do you think and feel reason will prevail in the next five years? Any chance of a bipartisan mentality - with less fomenting of fear and violence?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Maureen Dowd’s “Riling up the Crazies” column today omits the reality that good people with intelligence and character are also riled up. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The fear and fascist crap is too effective so far.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Too few in politics and elsewhere know how to outsmart liars and psychopathy with integrity.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">While many are persisting and standing for health and good change, too many are being made sick as well as being harmed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">So far I have not succumbed to cigarettes, alcohol, psychotropics, Oxycontin, heroin or a love sex addiction. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Or homicide except in fantasy.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">That said, so far analysis, intellectualizion and humor are my drugs of choice.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">All on Clio’s are contributing to what works for me.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">With appreciation,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judy <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Judith Logue, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">18604 Tranquility Base Lane<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">609-915-9155, cell<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Arnie,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Since 1968, with the exception of George W. Bush, every successful Republican Presidential candidate has run on a southern strategy of appealing to white racists. Trump has just been more overt and demagogic about it than most of the other Republicans. As we know, anti-semitism has long been part of white supremacists outlook. I think Trump’s long history shows he is racist, but I don’t see much anti-semitism in him. Outside of his father, the most influential male in his life was Jewish, Roy Cohn. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">There is no question good people don’t chant “Jews will not replace us.” Nor do good people tolerate chants of “Lock her up” or “CNN sucks” at their demagogic rallies. As a nation, we are in dangerous times, especially when such a high percentage of the American electorate support a President who encourages anger, prejudice, and violence regularly, and don’t care that he undermines the Constitution and the laws of the land. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Current Events and Psychohistory<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Thanks, Judy. Demographic trends do not favor a fascist majority in the US. Nor am I worried about the Supreme Court as such, because as long as we have majoritarian democracy, I believe the Democrats will eventually pack the Supreme Court. Here are the two things I worry about. First, if Russian and/or Republican tampering with the actual vote casts the legitimacy of this and/or future elections into doubt, then we're going to have a real breakdown of democratic governance. There is a simple remedy for this. By federal law, every state should be required to keep a paper trail of every vote. If I had any influence with the Democratic Party (Ken, are you listening?), I would advise them to put that reform at the topic of their agenda.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">There is no such fix for my second nightmare scenario, but fortunately it is self-limiting in the sense that it is not a stable arrangement that can last for many years. This scenario is that a third party will form, comprised of former "moderate" Republicans like Jeff Flake and centrist Democrats being marginalized by the Bernie Sanders trend in the Democratic Party. This third party will be the new "moderate" face of neoliberal capital, and will frame itself as the sensible middle way between the extremes of left and right. This is a seductive but false narrative, debunked repeatedly by Paul Krugman for example. With Trump's virtually complete takeover of the Republican Party and the ascendancy of the Bernie Sanders types in the Democratic Party, the logic of our political system points to the emergence of such a third party. If this happens, such a party could capture most of the "independent" vote, enabling Trump to be re-elected for a second term by an even smaller minority of the electorate than he got in 2016.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Sorry to burden you with not one but two nightmare scenarios, Judy, but if you agree with this analysis, at least you will be worrying about the right things. :-) I am managing the stress by taking a three week meditation retreat at Maharishi University in Fairfield, Iowa. I'm returning to NYC the day before election day.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Brian</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><u><span style="color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Arial; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">A majority of Israelis do not support Trump and do not feel Trumps good for Israeli or Jews <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I heard make Israel great again as an anti Semitic comment because i believe anti Zionism and anti Semitism in the Middle east in Europe and on college campuses are connected <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I have no problem with opposing sone of the policies of the Israeli government but many anti Zionists do not believe Israel has a right to exist <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/01/12/famed-french-philosopher-bernard-henri-le<span style="border: none;">vy-anti-zionism-is-the-new-dressing-for-the-old-passion-of-antisemitism/</span></span></span></u><br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: Brian D'Agostino <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span></span></u>><br />To: cliospsyche <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">My relatives in France tell me they feel safer in Israel than in France a view shared by many French Jews The same for my Jewish friends in the UK and the Jews in Sweeden<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"> I am beginning to feel that way here <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I hope Brian will follow Alice's play book and try to understand where I and many of my coreligionists are coming from<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">There are now colleges in the US that Jews will not send their children to - Columbia Berkely SF State This is worse than the quota system that prevailed when I was applying to college and medical school <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">-----Original Message-----<br />From: arniedr via Clio’s Psyche <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>><br />To: cliospsyche <<u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></u>><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Ken Fuchsman</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Oct 28</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">The U S is in a precarious position, if the Democrats do not control the House of Representatives in the upcoming election, Trump and his allies will be emboldened. Besides curtail or end the Mueller investigation who knows what else will be done. The hope is within the Democratic Party, but they have abandoned their roots since Bill Clinton’s presidency and have lost their way. Bernie’s message is on target, but his appeal is limited. Still, this moderate-liberal remnants of a party is all we have now. The Trump coalition has many components. One is that Trump received a higher percentage of women voters than did Romney or McCain. Doing whatever is needed to get suburban women voters to abandon Republicans is helpful. After all 55 percent of Americans live in suburbs. I am sure the Democrats have focus groups on these matters. Overall, the Democrats need to re-group and focus on the economy and being more concerned for all Americans than they have been. After all, during the depths of the Great Recession, Obama did more to bail out the Detroit automakers than he did for the millions whose homes were foreclosed. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Isn't this too much homo economicus, Ken? Americans are motivated to recreate the dangerous atmosphere of their childhood homes... WE WANT precariousness. What no one seems to be arguing is how if democrats win control, this is no guarantee of respite, the downfall of this horrendous uptick in identifying with nationalism. If society brings about its own doom because more and more people can no longer avoid feeling like they'll be apocalyptically punished if growth continues, then we'll see an encroachment of the lost so that many democrats, too, start talking of the importance of borders, of taking pride in their mother nations again, etc. What worried many people about Sanders were the large number of Bernie Bros... the number of people who were turning against the "sinful" individualism of the Hillary supporters. For all intents and purposes,<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;"> </span></span><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">they were David Brooks</span></span></u>: </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">It’s threatened by extreme individualism — people who put the needs of the individual above the needs of the community. It’s threatened by globalists — people whose hearts have been bleached of the particular love of place. The greatest threats come from those who claim to be nationalists but who are the opposite.</span></i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #333333; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">To me, if democrats naturally -- that is, not primarily owing to focus groups -- are drawn to talking about the economy, and not about identity politics, attend to the, quote unquote, needs of all Americans, rather than focusing on the accomplishments of professionals, aka, the most self-actualized, it'll be a sign, really, of their becoming, too, David Brooks... of their relinquishing their pursuit of the light, to acquiesce to period of penance which will transform many Americans into the good folk/Volk, and many others, into something degraded from that. I'm sure there will be many who'll see the democrat's turn to suddenly evidently LIKING the commons again, as their regaining their virtue. If this were the 60s, I would agree... but since to me this is the 30s I think this is about -- primarily -- their own lack of ability to further sustain in their minds the genuine truth, that self-actualization is not sinful. It'll be about them creating an atmosphere where everyone is encouraged to be types rather than individuals... a period where we lose our adult status and become once again children, striving to show we care about our mother nation too. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">I think you are missing the main point, if the Republicans control the House and Senate after the November 6th election, Trump and the Congressional Republicans will feel they can go farther than they already have. Don't you perceive the danger?. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Everyone sane/not regressing perceives the danger. The danger they don't perceive is if democrats win, for "democrat" not meaning what it used to mean, as more and more Americans -- including hordes of democrats -- turn nationalistic. To me, republican or democrat, most Americans will over the next ten years sound like David Brooks,<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;"> </span></span><u><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">or like this recent article from Time Magazine</span></span></u>... written quite possibly -- who knows? -- by a democrat. The "advantage" of Republicans winning is that it allows us to believe we democrats are still the source of the light. The disadvantage... for SOME democrats, of democrats winning, is that they will see how widespread the problem is... with so many democrats evidencing their own regression, we'll have to come to the very uncomfortable and terrifying conclusion that there is no escape possible from ten years of hell -- the 50/50 split, is fiction, with the more profound split being 90/10... those for individuation, and those who see individuation as sin, and all the good self/bad self splitting, rewarding and punishing, that will entail. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-66325331035032602882018-11-15T04:04:00.000-08:002018-11-15T04:04:06.532-08:00Clio's Psyche, after conference, #1<div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;">
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Lovely meeting you all. Very rewarding time for me. Cheers. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Click here to <u>Reply</u><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Denis O'Keefe</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 4</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">It was great to meet in person and hopefully you can join us again soon. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Denis<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:02 PM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">pmcevoyhalston@gmail.com</span></span>></span> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Lovely meeting you all. Very rewarding time for me. Cheers. </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsych<span style="border: none;">e.org</span></span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.</span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">binsightfl1</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 4</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hi Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I too enjoyed meeting, speaking with, <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">and hearing you in person. Hope to<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">continue the conversation.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Warm Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Burton<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 4</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">VOL 2 WHEN?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I appreciated your contributions to the discussions. Hopefully these dialogs helped you formulate your ideas and are giving you grist for a paper to present next year. Glad we finally got to connect in person. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Busy working on it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 5</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Lovely meeting you and your family. Kudos to the all the help they provided; they made for intriguing guardians of the primal gateway: with presence too! You referred to deMause in your presentation and a bit from "Origins of War" came to mind. To deMause, concerning Hitler's first order of business, not immigrant expulsion, not splitting, but fusing with the nation: </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Jews were not made the target of violence, since when Goebbels called for a nationwide boycott of Jewish shops he had to call it off after a few days because “it had failed to arouse popular enthusiasm."<span style="position: relative; top: -3pt;"> </span>The initial central task of the Nazis was not persecuting Jews; it was creating a powerful Killer Mutterland, a Volk that made Germans feel they were fused with the Killer Mother alters in their heads. This fused state was termedGleichschaltung, a “total national unity.” </span></i><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Important, I think, because if to spot a Hitler we are looking for persecution and targeting, for splitting, only/primarily, Ann Coulter would suggest he can't be that, that this is mostly a liberal's forced narrative, because in her opinion he's been way soft/slow on this. If however we're on the lookout for something else... like making one's nation first!, we might find that there are Hitlers that will eventually appear, even in nations where all we're seeing now is increased nationalism. In Canada, for instance,</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">anti-immigration is not yet that strong</span></span>, and deemed by some impossible, but is polling more for an "ordered" culture rather than an "open" one. DeMause would argue that this all you need to know: a Hitler of a kind will emerge here, and follow the sequence. (In the article I refer to, note how the study explains that non-white Cdn cultures are polling, too, more for "ordered" than for "open.") </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">Speaking of forced narratives, I heard repeatedly at the conference that Trump has conned the working class (I appreciate your explaining that he is not only a working class phenomena), because there is no way he's doing anything for them. Yet if the last few decades of economic hardship owes to something Lloyd also discusses, of masochism, that pulls leaders, that forces them, into depriving people who need to be deprived to maintain any sense of self-equilibrium, and if this period is over as we switch into another phase, Trump could prove akin to Hitler (the historian Gotz Aly explains how Hitler served as a genuine provider to his Volk, in "Hitler's Beneficiaries") and actually function as a good provider, as the mass's DESIRE for masochistic treatment is over. Again, if Lloyd is right, and liberals continue to maintain Trump as someone who will betray those he says he speaks for, they will be shown up and seem even less worth listening to. Liberals may be hammering home at something they cannot reconsider because there is a particular set-up they require of who Trump is (exploiter, not -- as Lloyd would argue -- slave), who the "people" are (fundamentally good, but näive), what their own relationship to "the people" are (i.e., protectors, liberators, not zookeepers, suspicious of their "flock"), so they don't have to consider that at some level they are themselves so close to becoming people who fear apocalyptic attack/abandonment for their life acquisitions, their ongoing growth/self-realization, that much of their daily activity might be about shoring up defensive "spells" so to keep themselves seeming mostly as serving and deferential to duty/public cause... the old script of public servant. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: "Palatino Linotype"; padding: 0in;">Depressions are economic anorexias, where people starve themselves to avoid being eaten up by the Dragon Mother, the maternal vulture of infancy. The nation begins to look for a Phallic Leader with whom they can merge and regain their failed potency and who can protect them against their growing delusional fears of a persecutory mommy. (Emotional Life of Nations)</span></i><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 5</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #1f497d; font-family: Times; font-size: 12.5pt; padding: 0in;">If mass psychology were sufficient to explain Trump’s or Hitler’s hold on power, then neither of them would require an elaborate propaganda machine or an institutional base of support.. You don’t need to pump the mass public full of lies if they spontaneously support an authoritarian leader. In the case of Trump, he would not need (1) the Fox News/Sinclair/Breitbart propaganda machine and (2) a Republican party that is essentially now a fascist party, if he enjoyed the spontaneous support of a majority of Americans. In fact, he lost the popular vote and is less popular now than when he was elected. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Times; font-size: 12.5pt;"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #1f497d; font-family: Times; font-size: 12.5pt; padding: 0in;">I believe there may be some truth in what Patrick says, and that it would help explain the enduring support that Trump has with some of his hard core supporters, for whom the propaganda machine just reinforces what they would believe anyway. However, this is not the case for even some who voted for Trump in 2016 and are having buyer’s remorse, and completely ignores the fact that the majority of voters opposed Trump and still do. I believe that what Patrick is saying may be valid for a segment of the electorate, but not for the majority. In the case of Hitler, he had not only the support of a fanatical minority, but more importantly of the army, the industrialists, and the landowners. We have no opinion polls from Nazi Germany, and considering that the majority of the German electorate voted against Hitler when the last free elections were held in 1932, and he maintained power thereafter with the help of both a propaganda machine and a terror apparatus, there is no reason to believe that Hitler ever enjoyed majority political support. –Brian </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[mailto:<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>]</span> <b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">On Behalf Of</span> </b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston<br /><b>Sent:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Tuesday, June 05, 2018 8:00 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Clio’s Psyche<br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Re: [cliospsyche] Conference</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Denis O'Keefe</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">I’ll send along your kudos to Christine and Aiden.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Brian and I have been talking for some time now about a research program to better provide empirical footing for the psychogenic model, which relies on phenomenology, case studies and anecdotal clinical encounters.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">All of which are equally important, in my mind, in answering ‘how do we know what we know?’<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">My study was really ‘low hanging fruit’, to borrow Brian’s term, in this regard and an extension of previous research seeking to integrate the contextual, psychological, ideological and interpersonal factors that seem to fuel or thwart xenophobic tendencies in the US.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; padding: 0in;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">The topic of immigration is highly politically salient since the events of 9/11 and given that the research demonstrates that American beliefs about immigrants, especially those who are anti-immigrant, do not match reality (indicating some level of projection) and immigrant threat narratives have been used to solidify political power and policies that have created a severe humanitarian crisis in detention centers and treatment of refugees, provides for a good subject to test the basic premise of the psychogenic model.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">That being, very simply stated, systems of belief (group fantasies) and the actions they motivate service basic defensive needs against childhood conflicts.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Milburn’s research on affect displacement theory provides good evidence for this possible reality.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Particularly split off rage in the development of authoritarianism.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Terror Management Theory as a field has produced many hundreds, possibly in the thousands (who can keep up?) of empirical studies demonstrating the use of world view defense or belief systems to defend against existential fears.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; padding: 0in;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">My research was simply testing whether having experienced childhood adversity in the forms of physical and sexual abuse and punitive parenting predicts authoritarianism and social dominance tendencies which then predicts anti-immigrant sentiment.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">The findings support both psychogenic and affect displacement hypothesis.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Experience in psychotherapy was added to the model to see if it moderated or provided some level of mitigation in the relationship between childhood adversity and stated personality factors.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">These findings suggested that it does, but the effect is small.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">If I was to do this again, I would include more pre-oedipal factors such as attachment, reflective functioning/mentalization and epistemic trust, among others as potential moderators, although staying away from mother bashing, as Lloyd was often easily misunderstood (IMO) to be doing.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">These factors are so much more difficult to measure and why my research is low hanging fruit.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">I use Lloyd’s paper on the Childhood Origins of the Holocaust in my Psychohistory I class to demonstrate the application of his psychogenic model to a historical subject.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; padding: 0in;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">The level of abuse and neglect suffered by the Nazi cohort that he writes about is far beyond what typical Americans experience today.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">If we take his model seriously, there isn’t the psychosocial context for another Hitler to rise.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Only wannabes, which Trump is.<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"> </span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I use Lloyd’s paper on the Childhood Origins of the Holocaust in my Psychohistory I class to demonstrate the application of his psychogenic model to a historical subject. The level of abuse and neglect suffered by the Nazi cohort that he writes about is far beyond what typical Americans experience today. If we take his model seriously, there isn’t the psychosocial context for another Hitler to rise. Only wannabes, which Trump is. </span></i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">This is a fair comment. I have a couple of replies. One, there is context for a situation to occur where to us it FEELS exactly like Hitler's rise, even if it doesn't reach that level. Pinker, in one of his better bits, explores in both of his most recent two books why being alarmist about world violence is irrational, in a sense, because it just keeps on decreasing, but rational, in a different sense, because to those whose sensibilities have evolved a spike in violence nevertheless can be experienced as apocalyptic, as it is a marked increase from what they've ever known. (I of course believe -- after fusing with the nation -- that the level of violence is about to spike to an astronomical level, and that Pinker is at work discrediting the very people who'll put the best resources into keeping it as reduced as possible.)</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Second, Lloyd has always pushed too hard on how far we've evolved. He insisted that evidence showed that the generation after the ww2 gen in Germany had actually done what was required for their childrearing to evolve to such an extent, that another Hitler was impossible. I always thought this was implausible, and to a certain extent, here, was simply speaking to a crowd who want to crown themselves (he always praises his own "advanced psychoclass" children as well, yet, if so advanced, why is there nowhere from them any of their own promotion of their father's work/theories? Their silence in this regard makes their father seem like a quack to get distance from; it's harsh, and psychologically ungenerous to today's generation... to me, not what an advanced psychoclass member would do: we would have heard from them, somewhere, as their father was getting targeted, if they came out as advertised. He got the 1960s Growth Phase lift; they go the Manic Phase... and it's showing). Not him at his best. I personally don't think it has evolved all that sufficiently. Even the current research into authoritarian parenting worries me, for I sense even amongst the researchers some dissociation from all that harms children within the family context. Indeed, we're even hearing how spanking can be a sign of a parent's love... it's what saved black children during the times of slavery, don't you know! Lloyd's writing, not about the Nazi cohort but the German aggregate, is about medieval instruments and constant sexual abuse... so it's ready-made to be dismissed as belonging to the medieval cauldron of the yesteryear. I personally suspect that might be smart use of deMause to defuse his ability to keep us woke to how another Hitler, not a wannabee Hitler, is arising, in multiple places, around the world right now. The number of years of ongoing social progress has stretched several decades now. Lloyd, if I remember correctly, argued that the reason ww1 was so colossal in terms of mass sacrifice, owed not only to level of childrearing but the number of decades of ongoing progress that preceded it. I think we might find we've found ways to hide the real extent of child abuse that has been occurring, that the #MeToo movement has not yet happened for the full extent of accepted child abuse in society (indeed, we collectively prevented it from breaching into pedophilia, where it was beginning to enter... and thus sexually abused children were further silenced), and the reason we've done this is because we sense that very soon, in fact, actually already beginning, right now, that we can play out the child abuse we experienced early in life onto the social stage and so don't need to reckon with it in a harder, more confrontational and honest sense, that would pit us against our inner parental (read: maternal) alters, pit us directly against mom, that threaten total abandonment of us, total lack of love for us, if we show we recognize their sadistic intentions towards us. The cost of this is that we will not evolve into healthier individuals, but become the "good sons and daughters" who won't stand in the way of the "bad sons and daughters" being transmogrified into threats to our civilization, and punished for it. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I suppose I have a third response. Your response makes Trump seem... not so great a concern. To me this gives him room he cannot be allowed to be given. It also makes the people who say he's a Hitler seem alarmist, not so much to be listened to (it also makes Clio seem not crazy, for saying Trump voters shouldn't be maligned, and for including Trump student voters amongst its published essays... how moderate and inclusive!). If we are entering a Hitlerian era, which I think we are, the context will become so mad that only the insane will be in control of themselves. For them, the outside will nicely fit their inside, as Lloyd says. Many people who currently argue that Trump isn't as bad and dangerous as his opponents claim, are I think explaining their viewpoint in a way which seems moderate now. How they will be explaining him 2, 4, 8, perhaps 12 years from now, as he remains in power, would seem outrageously horrible, if expressed now, but will be the moderate position subsequently. They'll never not know themselves as fully reasonable. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I think the universities will be purged and that there will be camps, and that when this happens, for the huge majority, it will be excused as regrettable but absolutely necessary for our civilization not to expire. I think, very soon, it will difficult for those who identify as moderates not to see what are in truth our most psychological advanced citizens, as not having moved into some land of dire hysterical crazy. People to be herded up. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Denis O'Keefe</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I cannot address all your thoughts with my limited time. Just a few things.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I don't mean to minimize the potential dangers and destructiveness already underway compliments of the Trump administration and the neo-liberal and alt-right backlash against Obama. Nor the human potential for destructiveness in groups given certain contextual stressors.... one of which you note... massive social change i.e. anomie or deMausian (Masterson) growth panic. These massive changes in American society including, but not limited to a persistent war on terror, demographic shifts, economic hardship and a changed economy, gender and racial equality, technological advances, etc. have certainly played a role in the creation of the regressive Tea Party politics which made the Trump Presidency possible. Social psyche research is indicating that context does prime different aspects of the self which can have strikingly different motivations, level of defense mechanisms employed and perceptions paving the way for non-sociopaths to fully engage in sociopathic behavior/movements. This could be common (but arguably more destructive) forms of structural violence such as our health care system leaving hundreds of thousands of people dying of treatable illness every year or more overt like genocide as you seem to be fearing. I think we must stay vigilant to the reality of what is happening as well as potentialities. The recent rise of authoritarianism around the globe, even in Europe has certainly been alarming and may also be partly explained by rapid social change. The problem with focusing too much on potentialities is that it can easily become a Rorschach of sorts. My conservative friends (I live in upstate NY so I have quite a few) railed against fascist Obama. Trump gets elected and my liberal friends are railing against a fascist Trump. There are fundamental differences in the reality of both their actions. Quantitatively or objectively, Trump wins every race toward fascism I could imagine, but the question of perception of potentialities too often seems to tell more about the personal than the literal reality. I am much more cautious than you in my projections about the future, although I certainly admit what you suggest is possible. I just don't find it as likely as less severe outcomes. That said, anyone who knows me, especially my social work students, know that I will not suffer guilt through silent collusion with social injustices and agree with your fears of complacency. You've said so much more I wish I could dialogue with you about. At the moment, I have to prepare for my next appointment. I do hope we can keep up the conversation.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">On the lighter side, this sports article from Politico suggests that the NBA finals are a metaphor for the polarization in America. The difference between the Golden State Warriors (West Coast modernism) and the Cleveland Cavaliers (Rust Best Traditionalism). Both teams represent different parts of America. Interesting stuff, but I especially liked the conclusion and how it relates to this discussion about child rearing stages. "...to understand the value system that motivates our neighbors is the first step toward understanding the actions they take." Lloyd's stages are important because they help to determine what people value, and those values determine behavior. The stage of child rearing does not by itself determine peoples' behavior, but it effects what people value and their perceived needs (Maslow). </span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 6</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Clever article. Has me thinking. To what extent is "players agreeing to let Lebron absolutely run things as other players</span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"> experienced enough [which should read, broken enough] to know their role, stay out of the King’s way," a "value system"? One reads "childrearing stages" as differing levels of incurred parental abuse, and it's tough to work, from there, to anything like the neutral sounding term, "value system." "Your" "value system," built out of most of you being bullied by your parents, means you support Great Leaders, because you read them as the abusive parents whose love you try to claim by being "accomodating" to them. The Golden State' "value system," built out of greater support and genuine love in childhood, means a whole team feeling disappointment if each player didn't feel as valuable and important as any other. "Value systems," the sociological term, to me, privileges the idea that we have something to learn from one another. We don't. This is about knowing the opposition so we're less apt to be eaten as they accrue strength. A guy doing it for the forgotten fan vs. corporate oligarchy, indeed... right there, is someone in our opposition. </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Thanks for the post. I valued the read. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you are talking as though you are a spectator of history and not a participant. No one can predict what will happen in public affairs because that is the total outcome of decisions that innumerable people make, including all of us on this list. No one knows what these decisions are going to be, so let´s dispense with the crystal balls. We cannot afford to be fatalistic about Trump or anything else. Too much is at stake. We need all hands on deck. If someone feels fatalistic and does not believe they have effective agency, they need to examine where these feelings originate and not conflate their childhood circumstances with the present state of the world. Millions of people in the world are stuck in group fantasies. It is our task as psychohistorians to hold these fantasies up to the light of consciousness, not to succumb to them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not everyone needs to be a political activist, but if you have the time or money and are feeling powerless, it might help to take some action, however small, to change the world. That will remind you that you are an agent and bear some responsibility for the state of the world. We are all in this together, but every person´s contribution matters. The most powerful contributions are the ones that come out of our own individuation. My personal task is to write peer reviewed articles and another book. That work puts my own unique gifts and passions to work helping to change the world. Because of this mission, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this list and only participate sporadically. I´m sure everyone on this list has their own unique contribution to make to our common project of creating a more humane, just, and sustainable world.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/6/2018 9:13 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I think the universities will be purged and that there will be camps, and that when this happens, for the huge majority, it will be excused as regrettable but absolutely necessary for our civilization not to expire. I think, very soon, it will difficult for those who identify as moderates not to see what are in truth our most psychological advanced citizens, as not having moved into some land of dire hysterical crazy. People to be herded up. </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian, this is a most inspiring message - and reinforces and validates how we all can (and must, I wish) use our individual strengths and talents to make the world a kinder, more mature and better place.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">You start my day on the right foot!👠<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judy<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue, PhD<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Port St. Lucie, FL 34987<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">www.judithlogue.com</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Thanks, Judy. :-)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian, I second Judy: I found this very inspiring and encouraging. Thanks so much!<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I'll be in New York later today (Friday). Are you free early this afternoon?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Michael Britton<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">🌹👍🌹<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judy<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not fatalistic. Just aware. It's good when you reach the young that you not blow smoke. You instead say, my science of psychohistory predicts that there will be no escape for about ten years, and then, suddenly, when the amount of wasted lives and sacrifices seems about right, about enough... when mommy's angry appetite is gauged, full, there will be another very lengthy period of huge allowance again. Make sure you keep intact to enjoy that. I think they'll find that more encouraging than to be told that hope exists now, that there is avenue and reception for their "effective agency," and then come to find, again and again and again, that it doesn't. This will lead to a much more rather gruesome fatalism, I think. By the by, Ontario just elected themselves their own Trump... I sense a lot of youth near about to strangle the adults who told them there was... hope. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">That's the great thing about deMause. He informs you so that your agency doesn't go wasted... you don't have to play the Freud who almost lost his daughter; you know the lost cause. He also informs you that you don't have to adulterate/administrate everything you write/think so that it's moderate enough for today's preferences, which is a good thing, for most of today's is about keeping everyone's very precarious mental equilibrium intact, so it sparks only of tiny full truths. Another age ahead is not so far enough distant that it can't be imagined scooping down to already collect and recover the ingredients one is providing which mesh better later. In this time, the role is to be the Howard Hawks and the Hitchcocks who provide enough of what the 30s wanted that they succeeded then, but that had substantial contents that actually only a subsequent era really could chow down on. This is what I advise and am doing. I worry about flight to action... I think that this is what the Democrats did with the Russian scandal: they went into vigilant action rather than reflected. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you cannot have it both ways. If you want to invoke the predictive power of science, then you have no business shitting all over the spirit and methods of science. Unfortunately, Lloyd deMause set a bad precedent in this regard, and it behooves us to confront this contradictory legacy and decide once and for all whether we really believe in science or not. If we believe in science then we need to test our theories against evidence and discard them when they don´t measure up. We also need to take care that our theories are not self contradictory. Lloyd did neither of these things and therefore I have no use for his pretensions to be practicing science. Some of his ideas are worth testing, as Denis did with his study of child abuse and anti immigrant sentiment. To my knowledge, this is only the second effort to ever test any of Lloyd´s theories, not an impressive track record for the IPA if we really imagine that we are practicing science. The first effort to test one of Lloyd´s theories was a systematic content analysis of media images that preceded the 1990 Gulf War, undertaken by Ted Goertzel and published in 1993 in the peer reviewed journal Political Psychology. See Is Psychohistory a Science, Psychohistory News, Spring 2015 <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://www.psychohistory.us/archive.php</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">It also needs to be said that not every science is predictive, a fact that chaos theory and quantum mechanics make abundantly clear. Physics cannot predict individual events at the quantum level. Meteorology is only predictive on short time scales. Biology and geology are not predictive with respect to the history of life on Earth, which is subject to innumerable random shocks such as the asteroid that apparently wiped out the dinosaurs. I would argue that psychohistory is also not a predictive science because complex systems are inherently chaotic and there is no more complex system than the real time interaction of some 200 political systems, representing 7.6 billion people, each of which is a complex and unpredictable psycho-physical system.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">This brings us to the central contradiction of Lloyd´s thought. On the one hand, he recognized that national psyches are not monolithic, but in fact consist of psychoclasses in conflict. On the other hand, he frequently contradicted this truth by talking about national group fantasies. It was this latter kind of thinking that led him to imagine that he could predict the outbreak of wars. As I mentioned above, Goertzel showed that one such claim, that the supposed national group fantasy preceding the 1990 Gulf War provided a basis for predicting the war, proved to be incorrect. If you still believe this theory and claim to also believe in science, then I encourage you to read Goertzl´s article and engage in a scientific debate with him on this list, since he is a member as far as I know. By scientific debate, I mean a discussion of deMause´s and Goertzel´s claims with respect to the data and methodology at issue. If you have no interest in doing this or learning how to do it, then I respectfully recommend that you stop using the word science to legitimize your deMausian version of psychohistory.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian et al<br /><br />It is always interesting to try to predict the future. We have our own world views and have some sense of what is going to happen. And while I agree that if we are truly scientists, we should be able to make some predictions, when a science is in its infancy, I would suggest it is more observational. All academic departments started out as ideas that needed nurturing. For example, leading economic indicators are such an it an intrinsic part of our financial lives it is hard to imagine that 100 years ago none of them existed. There was no gross national product or unemployment rate. Economics departments did not exist but were soon to branch off in many schools from the political theory departments. Naturalists had to make observations about the environment before ecology could become a science. Many observations needed to be made before the theory of ecosystems could have any predictive power. And we must not forget that the pioneers in any field are always highly criticized for the irrelevance of their ideas and the unpredictability or lack of usefulness of their ideas.<br /><br />So we have Lloyd‘s idea of different psychoclasses. I think that is a profound idea. He tried to predict too many things and made some mistakes. But people like Cambridge Analytica used similar logic and developed algorithms that are highly predictive. Those algorithms can predict what type of ads trigger people and alter elections. The science isn’t perfect, but after about 50 Facebook likes and dislikes, they know more about what motivates each one of us more than we do! Cambridge analytica knows an awful lot about the emotional life of elections and what type of group fantasies are out there.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">The predictive power of Cambridge Analytica's models is based on MASSIVE, MASSIVE amounts of data, and computer modeling methods, not on Lloyd's theories as far as I know. Some prediction in experimental psychology is possible, because you can largely control the information to which people are exposed, such as Cambridge Analytica did with Facebook. However, predicting complex historical events like wars is IN PRINCIPLE a fool's errand because there are so many variables that no one can control. Bill, I don't think you are coming to grips with what I said about chaos theory and quantum mechanics. You seem to be operating with a classical Newtonian/Einsteinian paradigm of linear, predictive science that is no longer tenable. --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">My goals are much more modest. Essentially they are:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">do what you can do. Don't do what you cannot do (by<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">definition, you can't). The Talmud says, if you save one<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">person, you have saved the world. Modest, but, I hope,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">meaningful. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">We are largely on the same page. I am not suggesting that Cambridge analytica was familiar with Lloyd. Rather, we all have assumptions about what causes behavior, whether it is Freudian unconscious, Skinner’s carrots and sticks, or psychoclasses. To my knowledge, Cambridge‘s idea was that people vote based on their fears – the emotional life of voters is about what people fear. They tapped into that data and from all of that chaos came some reasonably predictive models. But I agree with you, Lloyd took his predictions just too far. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">So where do we take psycho history from here.? I believe that nations do have emotional lives. Nations and cultures have collective interiors, thoughts and feelings, that are promulgated by group fantasies. The fact that we still can’t predict wars and many other things is simply a sign that psychohistory is not yet a mature field<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">RE: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hi Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> My condolences re Dougie, I agree that things are looking pretty grim in a lot of places, and there are dangers in encouraging false hope.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> David<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span> <<span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston<br /><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 08, 2018 7:46 AM<br /><b>To:</b> Clio’s Psyche <<span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span>><br /><b>Subject:</b> [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">-- <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">What I think what we should do is be very modest in what we predict. The radicalness should leave us and people should leave our conferences delighted in how it has slipped out of its juvenile past into a more mature state, more fully informed of how things, how life, is much more complex than we had guessed. I think at that point someone should take a picture of us, operating in refined and wizened form as we are -- such a contrast to the crazy alt-right phenomenon that is eating the world! -- ... maybe, also, we could all be on a yacht, and wearing fine Piaget watches... yeah, that'd be good... so even as we've neutered our field of the radical thinking that would offer us an unsurpassable angle of perspicuity on world affairs -- and at least some legitimate show, from the good side, of actually having resources of sufficient surprise and notability that they could maybe even turn around an age due by fate to grow dark -- maybe the universities will accept us and we'll feel, life-fulfilled, properly encapsulated for all time, before the age has an opportunity to complete its great purge on our venues of self-completion. Who knows? Maybe this self-completed state will persist into the afterlife, and we'll catch advance site of this wonderful due fate so strongly that we'll never really have to be out of focussing on it, even when the world brings the ghouls, the dirt, the claws, that we weren't up to really countering, probably because doing so would help rescue the young... and there DO have to be sacrifices -- someone's been "improperly" spoiling themselves -- don't there?, within the trespasses of our doors, our sight, our skin, our reality. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">The future can be predicted. Lloyd's reach was appropriate. He did only what we should expect for the norm. Claims of modesty almost always mark people as those informed by a fear of being pretentious, a fear so powerful the "truth" of the world is absolutely to be manipulated, if it'll grant a final say of simply how things are and go, and the more presuming amongst us, become less effective in their applications for being made juveniles or madmen. Zaretsky and Lloyd mark the 1930s and 40s as an age of people agreeing to being misbehaving sons and daughters, ready, now, to defer and pledge service to their Mother Nations... the misbehaving sons and daughters, were their previous, unrestrained, pretentious selves. During the 30s and 40s the like of Lloyd's radicalness would be out, but not owing to being disproven -- though that would be how it would be presented -- but because it lent one the wrong look, when everyone was ruled out of a fear of appearing spoiled (i.e., populism). <br /><br />On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 3:28:35 PM UTC-4, drwargus wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">We are largely on the same page. I am not suggesting that Cambridge analytica was familiar with Lloyd. Rather, we all have assumptions about what causes behavior, whether it is Freudian unconscious, Skinner’s carrots and sticks, or psychoclasses. To my knowledge, Cambridge‘s idea was that people vote based on their fears – the emotional life of voters is about what people fear. They tapped into that data and from all of that chaos came some reasonably predictive models. But I agree with you, Lloyd took his predictions just too far. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">So where do we take psycho history from here.? I believe that nations do have emotional lives. Nations and cultures have collective interiors, thoughts and feelings, that are promulgated by group fantasies. The fact that we still can’t predict wars and many other things is simply a sign that psychohistory is not yet a mature field<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Jun 8, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Brian D'Agostino <<span style="color: #6611cc;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">The predictive power of Cambridge Analytica's models is based on MASSIVE, MASSIVE amounts of data, and computer modeling methods, not on Lloyd's theories as far as I know. Some prediction in experimental psychology is possible, because you can largely control the information to which people are exposed, such as Cambridge Analytica did with Facebook. However, predicting complex historical events like wars is IN PRINCIPLE a fool's errand because there are so many variables that no one can control. Bill, I don't think you are coming to grips with what I said about chaos theory and quantum mechanics. You seem to be operating with a classical Newtonian/Einsteinian paradigm of linear, predictive science that is no longer tenable. --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/8/2018 11:31 AM, 'Bill Argus' via Clio’s Psyche wrote:<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian et al<br /><br />It is always interesting to try to predict the future. We have our own world views and have some sense of what is going to happen. And while I agree that if we are truly scientists, we should be able to make some predictions, when a science is in its infancy, I would suggest it is more observational. All academic departments started out as ideas that needed nurturing. For example, leading economic indicators are such an it an intrinsic part of our financial lives it is hard to imagine that 100 years ago none of them existed. There was no gross national product or unemployment rate. Economics departments did not exist but were soon to branch off in many schools from the political theory departments. Naturalists had to make observations about the environment before ecology could become a science. Many observations needed to be made before the theory of ecosystems could have any predictive power. And we must not forget that the pioneers in any field are always highly criticized for the irrelevance of their ideas and the unpredictability or lack of usefulness of their ideas.<br /><br />So we have Lloyd‘s idea of different psychoclasses. I think that is a profound idea. He tried to predict too many things and made some mistakes. But people like Cambridge Analytica used similar logic and developed algorithms that are highly predictive. Those algorithms can predict what type of ads trigger people and alter elections. The science isn’t perfect, but after about 50 Facebook likes and dislikes, they know more about what motivates each one of us more than we do! Cambridge analytica knows an awful lot about the emotional life of elections and what type of group fantasies are out there.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Jun 8, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Brian D'Agostino <<span style="color: #6611cc;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you cannot have it both ways. If you want to invoke the predictive power of science, then you have no business shitting all over the spirit and methods of science. Unfortunately, Lloyd deMause set a bad precedent in this regard, and it behooves us to confront this contradictory legacy and decide once and for all whether we really believe in science or not. If we believe in science then we need to test our theories against evidence and discard them when they don´t measure up. We also need to take care that our theories are not self contradictory. Lloyd did neither of these things and therefore I have no use for his pretensions to be practicing science. Some of his ideas are worth testing, as Denis did with his study of child abuse and anti immigrant sentiment. To my knowledge, this is only the second effort to ever test any of Lloyd´s theories, not an impressive track record for the IPA if we really imagine that we are practicing science. The first effort to test one of Lloyd´s theories was a systematic content analysis of media images that preceded the 1990 Gulf War, undertaken by Ted Goertzel and published in 1993 in the peer reviewed journal Political Psychology. See Is Psychohistory a Science, Psychohistory News, Spring 2015 <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://www.psychohistory.us/archive.php</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">It also needs to be said that not every science is predictive, a fact that chaos theory and quantum mechanics make abundantly clear. Physics cannot predict individual events at the quantum level. Meteorology is only predictive on short time scales. Biology and geology are not predictive with respect to the history of life on Earth, which is subject to innumerable random shocks such as the asteroid that apparently wiped out the dinosaurs. I would argue that psychohistory is also not a predictive science because complex systems are inherently chaotic and there is no more complex system than the real time interaction of some 200 political systems, representing 7.6 billion people, each of which is a complex and unpredictable psycho-physical system.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">This brings us to the central contradiction of Lloyd´s thought. On the one hand, he recognized that national psyches are not monolithic, but in fact consist of psychoclasses in conflict. On the other hand, he frequently contradicted this truth by talking about national group fantasies. It was this latter kind of thinking that led him to imagine that he could predict the outbreak of wars. As I mentioned above, Goertzel showed that one such claim, that the supposed national group fantasy preceding the 1990 Gulf War provided a basis for predicting the war, proved to be incorrect. If you still believe this theory and claim to also believe in science, then I encourage you to read Goertzl´s article and engage in a scientific debate with him on this list, since he is a member as far as I know. By scientific debate, I mean a discussion of deMause´s and Goertzel´s claims with respect to the data and methodology at issue. If you have no interest in doing this or learning how to do it, then I respectfully recommend that you stop using the word science to legitimize your deMausian version of psychohistory.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/8/2018 7:46 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not fatalistic. Just aware. It's good when you reach the young that you not blow smoke. You instead say, my science of psychohistory predicts that there will be no escape for about ten years, and then, suddenly, when the amount of wasted lives and sacrifices seems about right, about enough... when mommy's angry appetite is gauged, full, there will be another very lengthy period of huge allowance again. Make sure you keep intact to enjoy that. I think they'll find that more encouraging than to be told that hope exists now, that there is avenue and reception for their "effective agency," and then come to find, again and again and again, that it doesn't. This will lead to a much more rather gruesome fatalism, I think. By the by, Ontario just elected themselves their own Trump... I sense a lot of youth near about to strangle the adults who told them there was... hope. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">That's the great thing about deMause. He informs you so that your agency doesn't go wasted... you don't have to play the Freud who almost lost his daughter; you know the lost cause. He also informs you that you don't have to adulterate/administrate everything you write/think so that it's moderate enough for today's preferences, which is a good thing, for most of today's is about keeping everyone's very precarious mental equilibrium intact, so it sparks only of tiny full truths. Another age ahead is not so far enough distant that it can't be imagined scooping down to already collect and recover the ingredients one is providing which mesh better later. In this time, the role is to be the Howard Hawks and the Hitchcocks who provide enough of what the 30s wanted that they succeeded then, but that had substantial contents that actually only a subsequent era really could chow down on. This is what I advise and am doing. I worry about flight to action... I think that this is what the Democrats did with the Russian scandal: they went into vigilant action rather than reflected. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 4:54:02 AM UTC-4, bdagostino2687 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you are talking as though you are a spectator of history and not a participant. No one can predict what will happen in public affairs because that is the total outcome of decisions that innumerable people make, including all of us on this list. No one knows what these decisions are going to be, so let´s dispense with the crystal balls. We cannot afford to be fatalistic about Trump or anything else. Too much is at stake. We need all hands on deck. If someone feels fatalistic and does not believe they have effective agency, they need to examine where these feelings originate and not conflate their childhood circumstances with the present state of the world. Millions of people in the world are stuck in group fantasies. It is our task as psychohistorians to hold these fantasies up to the light of consciousness, not to succumb to them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not everyone needs to be a political activist, but if you have the time or money and are feeling powerless, it might help to take some action, however small, to change the world. That will remind you that you are an agent and bear some responsibility for the state of the world. We are all in this together, but every person´s contribution matters. The most powerful contributions are the ones that come out of our own individuation. My personal task is to write peer reviewed articles and another book. That work puts my own unique gifts and passions to work helping to change the world. Because of this mission, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this list and only participate sporadically. I´m sure everyone on this list has their own unique contribution to make to our common project of creating a more humane, just, and sustainable world.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/6/2018 9:13 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I think the universities will be purged and that there will be camps, and that when this happens, for the huge majority, it will be excused as regrettable but absolutely necessary for our civilization not to expire. I think, very soon, it will difficult for those who identify as moderates not to see what are in truth our most psychological advanced citizens, as not having moved into some land of dire hysterical crazy. People to be herded up. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 8</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hi David. Thanks for the input. I appreciate hearing from you. Doug will get his 12 years and total destruction, but then his time of following through, quite genuinely, with the people's orders, will be done... so there's that.<br /><br />On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 6:10:51 PM UTC-4, david wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hi Patrick,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> My condolences re Dougie, I agree that things are looking pretty grim in a lot of places, and there are dangers in encouraging false hope.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> David<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span> <<span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patrick McEvoy-Halston<br /><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 08, 2018 7:46 AM<br /><b>To:</b> Clio’s Psyche <<span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span>><br /><b>Subject:</b> [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not fatalistic. Just aware. It's good when you reach the young that you not blow smoke. You instead say, my science of psychohistory predicts that there will be no escape for about ten years, and then, suddenly, when the amount of wasted lives and sacrifices seems about right, about enough... when mommy's angry appetite is gauged, full, there will be another very lengthy period of huge allowance again. Make sure you keep intact to enjoy that. I think they'll find that more encouraging than to be told that hope exists now, that there is avenue and reception for their "effective agency," and then come to find, again and again and again, that it doesn't. This will lead to a much more rather gruesome fatalism, I think. By the by, Ontario just elected themselves their own Trump... I sense a lot of youth near about to strangle the adults who told them there was... hope. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">That's the great thing about deMause. He informs you so that your agency doesn't go wasted... you don't have to play the Freud who almost lost his daughter; you know the lost cause. He also informs you that you don't have to adulterate/administrate everything you write/think so that it's moderate enough for today's preferences, which is a good thing, for most of today's is about keeping everyone's very precarious mental equilibrium intact, so it sparks only of tiny full truths. Another age ahead is not so far enough distant that it can't be imagined scooping down to already collect and recover the ingredients one is providing which mesh better later. In this time, the role is to be the Howard Hawks and the Hitchcocks who provide enough of what the 30s wanted that they succeeded then, but that had substantial contents that actually only a subsequent era really could chow down on. This is what I advise and am doing. I worry about flight to action... I think that this is what the Democrats did with the Russian scandal: they went into vigilant action rather than reflected. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 4:54:02 AM UTC-4, bdagostino2687 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you are talking as though you are a spectator of history and not a participant. No one can predict what will happen in public affairs because that is the total outcome of decisions that innumerable people make, including all of us on this list. No one knows what these decisions are going to be, so let´s dispense with the crystal balls. We cannot afford to be fatalistic about Trump or anything else. Too much is at stake. We need all hands on deck. If someone feels fatalistic and does not believe they have effective agency, they need to examine where these feelings originate and not conflate their childhood circumstances with the present state of the world. Millions of people in the world are stuck in group fantasies. It is our task as psychohistorians to hold these fantasies up to the light of consciousness, not to succumb to them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not everyone needs to be a political activist, but if you have the time or money and are feeling powerless, it might help to take some action, however small, to change the world. That will remind you that you are an agent and bear some responsibility for the state of the world. We are all in this together, but every person´s contribution matters. The most powerful contributions are the ones that come out of our own individuation. My personal task is to write peer reviewed articles and another book. That work puts my own unique gifts and passions to work helping to change the world. Because of this mission, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this list and only participate sporadically. I´m sure everyone on this list has their own unique contribution to make to our common project of creating a more humane, just, and sustainable world.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/6/2018 9:13 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I think the universities will be purged and that there will be camps, and that when this happens, for the huge majority, it will be excused as regrettable but absolutely necessary for our civilization not to expire. I think, very soon, it will difficult for those who identify as moderates not to see what are in truth our most psychological advanced citizens, as not having moved into some land of dire hysterical crazy. People to be herded up. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">--<br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit: <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home: <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---<br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit <span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">This responds to Bill and to Burton. Bill, you seem to be assuming that a ``mature`` science is necessarily predictive. But that assumption is precisely what chaos theory and quantum mechanics call into question. Scientific determinism is dead. No science is more mature than physics, and it is now indisputable that physics cannot predict individual events at the quantum level. Nor can the implications of this be ``quarantined`` to the quantum level. Most notably, random mutations are now know to be the driving force in biological evolution. Random events are by definition unpredictable. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">The old way of thinking was to say that mutations are only apparently random, and that once we dig deeper and deeper into the microscopic processes that underlie mutations we will eventually reach a deterministic realm in which mutations are actually found to be the predictable outcomes of measurable physical processes. Similarly, the outcome of tossing dice, according to this way of thinking, is only apparently random because if we measure the initial conditions accurately enough and the exact forces acting on the dice, the outcome will be completely predictable according to Newtonian physics. Quantum mechanics throws all this out the window. If you go to the most minute atomic and sub-atomic levels of the forces that govern mutations or the tossing of dice, the familiar determinism of cause and effect breaks down and you find yourself in the INHERENTLY unpredictable realm of quantum mechanics. So the upshot of all this is that mutations and the tossing of dice are FUNDAMENTALLY AND INHERENTLY random events, not just <i>apparently </i>random. No amount of "maturity" of the sciences involved will get us back to determinism. Scientific determinism is dead, which to old fashioned materialists is just as traumatic a discovery as that God is dead.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">It is easy enough to apply the above analysis to neuroscience and psychotherapy. The brain is a physical system and every neuron is a complex physical system unto itself that ultimately operates according to the laws of quantum mechanics. So the notion that the thoughts and actions of a single human being can ever be fully predictable is not tenable. If we knew everything down to the most minute details about the early childhood conditions that shaped the personality of a certain person, no amount of maturation in psychology and all the other sciences will ever enable us to predict how his or her life will unfold. For psychoanalysts, this requires a break from the scientific determinism in which Freud's thought was rooted. This brings us to Burton's point, with which I completely agree. The relationship between therapist and client is a universe unto itself and how things unfold in this relationship is, in a very real sense, of cosmic significance. For more on this, I recommend Gerald J. Gargiulo's book <i>Quantum Psychoanalysis: Essays on Physics, Mind, and Analysis Today</i>, which recently won a Gradiva Award. --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />-------- Forwarded Message --------<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Date: <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Fri, 8 Jun 2018 12:33:37 -0400<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">From: <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Burton N. Seitler <span style="color: #6611cc;"><binsightfl1 gmail.com=""></binsightfl1></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">My goals are much more modest. Essentially they are: do what you can do. Don't do what you cannot do (by definition, you can't). The Talmud says, if you save one person, you have saved the world. Modest, but, I hope, meaningful. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Burton<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/8/2018 3:28 PM, 'Bill Argus' via Clio’s Psyche wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">We are largely on the same page. I am not suggesting that Cambridge analytica was familiar with Lloyd. Rather, we all have assumptions about what causes behavior, whether it is Freudian unconscious, Skinner’s carrots and sticks, or psychoclasses. To my knowledge, Cambridge‘s idea was that people vote based on their fears – the emotional life of voters is about what people fear. They tapped into that data and from all of that chaos came some reasonably predictive models. But I agree with you, Lloyd took his predictions just too far. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">So where do we take psycho history from here.? I believe that nations do have emotional lives. Nations and cultures have collective interiors, thoughts and feelings, that are promulgated by group fantasies. The fact that we still can’t predict wars and many other things is simply a sign that psychohistory is not yet a mature field<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Bill Argus<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Jun 8, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Brian D'Agostino <<span style="color: #6611cc;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">The predictive power of Cambridge Analytica's models is based on MASSIVE, MASSIVE amounts of data, and computer modeling methods, not on Lloyd's theories as far as I know. Some prediction in experimental psychology is possible, because you can largely control the information to which people are exposed, such as Cambridge Analytica did with Facebook. However, predicting complex historical events like wars is IN PRINCIPLE a fool's errand because there are so many variables that no one can control. Bill, I don't think you are coming to grips with what I said about chaos theory and quantum mechanics. You seem to be operating with a classical Newtonian/Einsteinian paradigm of linear, predictive science that is no longer tenable. --Brian<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/8/2018 11:31 AM, 'Bill Argus' via Clio’s Psyche wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Brian et al<br /><br />It is always interesting to try to predict the future. We have our own world views and have some sense of what is going to happen. And while I agree that if we are truly scientists, we should be able to make some predictions, when a science is in its infancy, I would suggest it is more observational. All academic departments started out as ideas that needed nurturing. For example, leading economic indicators are such an it an intrinsic part of our financial lives it is hard to imagine that 100 years ago none of them existed. There was no gross national product or unemployment rate. Economics departments did not exist but were soon to branch off in many schools from the political theory departments. Naturalists had to make observations about the environment before ecology could become a science. Many observations needed to be made before the theory of ecosystems could have any predictive power. And we must not forget that the pioneers in any field are always highly criticized for the irrelevance of their ideas and the unpredictability or lack of usefulness of their ideas.<br /><br />So we have Lloyd‘s idea of different psychoclasses. I think that is a profound idea. He tried to predict too many things and made some mistakes. But people like Cambridge Analytica used similar logic and developed algorithms that are highly predictive. Those algorithms can predict what type of ads trigger people and alter elections. The science isn’t perfect, but after about 50 Facebook likes and dislikes, they know more about what motivates each one of us more than we do! Cambridge analytica knows an awful lot about the emotional life of elections and what type of group fantasies are out there.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Jun 8, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Brian D'Agostino <<span style="color: #6611cc;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you cannot have it both ways. If you want to invoke the predictive power of science, then you have no business shitting all over the spirit and methods of science. Unfortunately, Lloyd deMause set a bad precedent in this regard, and it behooves us to confront this contradictory legacy and decide once and for all whether we really believe in science or not. If we believe in science then we need to test our theories against evidence and discard them when they don´t measure up. We also need to take care that our theories are not self contradictory. Lloyd did neither of these things and therefore I have no use for his pretensions to be practicing science. Some of his ideas are worth testing, as Denis did with his study of child abuse and anti immigrant sentiment. To my knowledge, this is only the second effort to ever test any of Lloyd´s theories, not an impressive track record for the IPA if we really imagine that we are practicing science. The first effort to test one of Lloyd´s theories was a systematic content analysis of media images that preceded the 1990 Gulf War, undertaken by Ted Goertzel and published in 1993 in the peer reviewed journal Political Psychology. See Is Psychohistory a Science, Psychohistory News, Spring 2015 <span style="color: #6611cc;">http://www.psychohistory.us/archive.php</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">It also needs to be said that not every science is predictive, a fact that chaos theory and quantum mechanics make abundantly clear. Physics cannot predict individual events at the quantum level. Meteorology is only predictive on short time scales. Biology and geology are not predictive with respect to the history of life on Earth, which is subject to innumerable random shocks such as the asteroid that apparently wiped out the dinosaurs. I would argue that psychohistory is also not a predictive science because complex systems are inherently chaotic and there is no more complex system than the real time interaction of some 200 political systems, representing 7.6 billion people, each of which is a complex and unpredictable psycho-physical system.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">This brings us to the central contradiction of Lloyd´s thought. On the one hand, he recognized that national psyches are not monolithic, but in fact consist of psychoclasses in conflict. On the other hand, he frequently contradicted this truth by talking about national group fantasies. It was this latter kind of thinking that led him to imagine that he could predict the outbreak of wars. As I mentioned above, Goertzel showed that one such claim, that the supposed national group fantasy preceding the 1990 Gulf War provided a basis for predicting the war, proved to be incorrect. If you still believe this theory and claim to also believe in science, then I encourage you to read Goertzl´s article and engage in a scientific debate with him on this list, since he is a member as far as I know. By scientific debate, I mean a discussion of deMause´s and Goertzel´s claims with respect to the data and methodology at issue. If you have no interest in doing this or learning how to do it, then I respectfully recommend that you stop using the word science to legitimize your deMausian version of psychohistory.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/8/2018 7:46 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not fatalistic. Just aware. It's good when you reach the young that you not blow smoke. You instead say, my science of psychohistory predicts that there will be no escape for about ten years, and then, suddenly, when the amount of wasted lives and sacrifices seems about right, about enough... when mommy's angry appetite is gauged, full, there will be another very lengthy period of huge allowance again. Make sure you keep intact to enjoy that. I think they'll find that more encouraging than to be told that hope exists now, that there is avenue and reception for their "effective agency," and then come to find, again and again and again, that it doesn't. This will lead to a much more rather gruesome fatalism, I think. By the by, Ontario just elected themselves their own Trump... I sense a lot of youth near about to strangle the adults who told them there was... hope. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">That's the great thing about deMause. He informs you so that your agency doesn't go wasted... you don't have to play the Freud who almost lost his daughter; you know the lost cause. He also informs you that you don't have to adulterate/administrate everything you write/think so that it's moderate enough for today's preferences, which is a good thing, for most of today's is about keeping everyone's very precarious mental equilibrium intact, so it sparks only of tiny full truths. Another age ahead is not so far enough distant that it can't be imagined scooping down to already collect and recover the ingredients one is providing which mesh better later. In this time, the role is to be the Howard Hawks and the Hitchcocks who provide enough of what the 30s wanted that they succeeded then, but that had substantial contents that actually only a subsequent era really could chow down on. This is what I advise and am doing. I worry about flight to action... I think that this is what the Democrats did with the Russian scandal: they went into vigilant action rather than reflected. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><br />On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 4:54:02 AM UTC-4, bdagostino2687 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Patrick, you are talking as though you are a spectator of history and not a participant. No one can predict what will happen in public affairs because that is the total outcome of decisions that innumerable people make, including all of us on this list. No one knows what these decisions are going to be, so let´s dispense with the crystal balls. We cannot afford to be fatalistic about Trump or anything else. Too much is at stake. We need all hands on deck. If someone feels fatalistic and does not believe they have effective agency, they need to examine where these feelings originate and not conflate their childhood circumstances with the present state of the world. Millions of people in the world are stuck in group fantasies. It is our task as psychohistorians to hold these fantasies up to the light of consciousness, not to succumb to them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Not everyone needs to be a political activist, but if you have the time or money and are feeling powerless, it might help to take some action, however small, to change the world. That will remind you that you are an agent and bear some responsibility for the state of the world. We are all in this together, but every person´s contribution matters. The most powerful contributions are the ones that come out of our own individuation. My personal task is to write peer reviewed articles and another book. That work puts my own unique gifts and passions to work helping to change the world. Because of this mission, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this list and only participate sporadically. I´m sure everyone on this list has their own unique contribution to make to our common project of creating a more humane, just, and sustainable world.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">On 6/6/2018 9:13 AM, Patrick McEvoy-Halston wrote:<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">I think the universities will be purged and that there will be camps, and that when this happens, for the huge majority, it will be excused as regrettable but absolutely necessary for our civilization not to expire. I think, very soon, it will difficult for those who identify as moderates not to see what are in truth our most psychological advanced citizens, as not having moved into some land of dire hysterical crazy. People to be herded up. </span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Howard-Stein@ouhsc.edu<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Dear Brian and Everyone in the CliosPsyche Listserve,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">I have been reading the conversation on agency and fatalism with great interest -- our lives and the earth do depend on how we choose -- and find that Brian's argument drawing upon chaos theory and quantum mechanics to be persuasive.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">If I may, I'd like to contribute a poem that is the concluding poem in my 2016 book,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> <i>Light and Shadow </i></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">, a poem called "Life is not a straight line." </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://www.doodleandpeck.com/adult</span> I think that it shares the Spirit of Brian's insights.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Warm regards to all,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Life Is Not a Straight Line</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><br /></span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; padding: 0in;">for Karam Adibifar </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Life is not a straight</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><br />line; few paths are direct.<br />Contingencies rock our intentions.</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Euclid is not all there is to life.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">An asteroid here, a large meteor there,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">a long volcanic night, an ice age –<br />an amoeba might wonder</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">how we got here at all.</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Life makes wide spirals,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">lurches far, then halts,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><br />curves in upon itself.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">“Man thinks, G-d laughs,”</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">goes an old Yiddish saying,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">as our line from plans<br />to results is at best roundabout,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">as our plans change in the middle,<br />and our outcomes stray far from our will.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">“Life has no meaning,” I said </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">out of ignorance and arrogance,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">when the dots failed to connect the</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><br />way I wished<br />and when I wished them to.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Then, in a moment of grace,<br />I surrendered to amazement and wonder; the dots spread out<br />before me like the Milky Way.<br />I yielded as an observer<br />of my own life, and for a moment</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">no longer needed to connect the dots<br />into a line of any kind.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Author of </span></b><i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Light and Shadow </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(poetry):</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://doodleandpeck.com/adult</span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Listening Deeply </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(Second Edition):</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://www.amazon.com/Howard-F.-Stein/e/B001HCZ62C/ref=ntt_dp_epwpk_0</span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">The Dysfunctional Workplace </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(with Seth Allcorn): same url as above,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">amazon.com</span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Howard F. Stein, Ph.D.</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Oklahoma City, OK USA;</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Phone: 405-787-6074</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Poet Laureate, High Plains Society for Applied Anthropology</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Home address: 1408 Oakhill Lane, Oklahoma City OK 73127 USA</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>] on behalf of Brian D'Agostino [<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span></span>]<br /><b>Sent:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Saturday, June 09, 2018 10:03 AM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cl<span style="border: none;">iospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span><br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Re: agency vs. fatalism</span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><br /><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche.org</span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span><br />---</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span>.<br />For more options, visit</span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"> </span><span style="color: #888888; font-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="color: #6611cc;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Howard-Stein@ouhsc.edu<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">This is beautiful, Howard.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I missed you in NY... your talk in 2017 was riveting and your presence today on Clio’s is so appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Your poetry never fails to get to the heart of the matter - and I love not having to read it a gazillion times to get it (or feel like an illiterate <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">unsophisticated dumbf-k as I do when reading some poets). <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Please post again soon.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Warmest wishes and all good things,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judy Logue<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I echo Judy's sentiments, Howard. Thanks for posting this to the list. Also, Judy, as a registrant in the conference, you will soon be able to access Howard's GoToMeeting presentations at the 2018 psychohistory conference as videotapes. --Brian <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Howard S</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">RE: Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Other recipients: </span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Howard-Stein@ouhsc.edu<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Thank you so much, Judy, for your many affirmations. I missed you also. Take care and keep in touch.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Warmest regards -- to you and Everyone at IPA 2018,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Howard<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Author of </span></b><i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Light and Shadow </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(poetry):</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://doodleandpeck.com/adult</span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Listening Deeply </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(Second Edition):</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.amazon.com/Howard-F.-<span style="border: none;">Stein/e/B001HCZ62C/ref=ntt_dp_epwpk_0</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">The Dysfunctional Workplace </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(with Seth Allcorn): same url as above,</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">amazon.com</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Howard F. Stein, Ph.D.</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Professor Emeritus</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Department of Family and Preventive Medicine</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Oklahoma City, OK USA;</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Phone: 405-787-6074</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Poet Laureate, High Plains Society for Applied Anthropology</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Home address: 1408 Oakhill Lane, Oklahoma City OK 73127 USA</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>] on behalf of Dr Judith Logue [<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">judith@judithlogue.com</span></span>]<br /><b>Sent:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Saturday, June 09, 2018 9:10 PM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br /><b>Cc:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Stein, Howard F. (HSC)<br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[EXTERNAL] [cliospsyche] Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism</span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 14pt;">Thank you, Brian.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Author of </span></b><i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Light and Shadow </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(poetry):</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://doodleandpeck.com/adult</span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">Listening Deeply </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(Second Edition):</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">https://www.amazon.com/Howard-F.-Stein/e/B001HCZ62C/ref=ntt_dp_epwpk_0</span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<i><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">The Dysfunctional Workplace </span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">(with Seth Allcorn): same url as above,</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">amazon.com</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Professor Emeritus</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Department of Family and Preventive Medicine</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Oklahoma City, OK USA;</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc; font-size: 10pt;">howard-stein@ouhsc.edu</span></span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Phone: 405-787-6074</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Poet Laureate, High Plains Society for Applied Anthropology</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Home address: 1408 Oakhill Lane, Oklahoma City OK 73127 USA</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">From:</span></b><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span>] on behalf of Brian D'Agostino [<span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">bdagostino2687@gmail.com</span></span>]<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">Saturday, June 09, 2018 9:18 PM<br /><b>To:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br /><b>Subject:</b></span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;">[EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism</span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judith Logue</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Jun 9</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [cliospsyche] Howard’s Poem “Life is Not a Straight Line” and Agency and Fatalism<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Wondeful... thank you. I am so happy I was able to attend this year.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Judy<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Aug 13</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Omarosa and the Cult of Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Hi, folks,</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">I just read on CNN the best analysis yet of the Trump phenomenon, a piece about Omarosa by Michael D'Antonio, author of</span><span style="color: #222222; font-size: 14pt;"> </span><i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success.</span></i><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;"> I've copied and pasted it below. Tonight I also heard an interview of Omarosa by Judy Woodruff on the PBS Newshour in which Omarosa showed herself to be far more thoughtful and credible than the ditsy reality TV show star I had imagined her to be. She nails the cult of Trump the way only an insider can. I suspect her book is going to be VERY damaging.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 18pt; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;">bdagostino.com</span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><br />Omarosa is the latest defector from Trump's 'cult'</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 16pt; padding: 0in;">By Michael D'Antonio</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">(CNN) Some of the juiciest bits from Omarosa Manigault Newman's "Unhinged: An Insider's Account from the Trump White House" include allegations that the President is a bigoted, emotionally abusive man in mental decline.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Trump and his surrogates are already challenging the accounts offered by the former White House aide who, fittingly, first met him when he was a reality TV show host and she was a contestant. However, they won't be able to refute her conclusion about the relationship between Trump and his most avid allies, because it's a judgment based on the sum of her experiences and not one lone anecdote.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">In describing the events that made it possible for her to write her tell-all, Manigault Newman notes that she had "escaped from the cult of Trumpworld." If a cult of Trump exists, the woman he helped become a household name -- say "Omarosa" and everyone knows who you're talking about -- is a prime example of the rapt and dependent believer who becomes an outspoken apostate.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Turn to the video of Omarosa speaking to PBS's Frontline in 2016 and you hear a woman who sounds like Ma Anand Sheela, the spokesperson for the 1980s cult leader Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Sheela was a highly visible Rajneeshi, speaking often on his behalf, until she fled to Europe after law enforcement broke up the cult. Similarly, Omarosa was a very public figure in the Trump campaign and White House and, prior to politics, boosted him over many years as a veteran of Trump's TV show, "The Apprentice."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">In all seriousness, Omarosa declared on PBS, "Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump. It's everyone who's ever doubted Donald, whoever disagreed, whoever challenged him. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Omarosa spoke as if Trump's very being justified his will to power, in a contest where his victory would apply across the vast and unknowable universe. Only after she was cast out of the White House, and from Trump's orbit, did Omarosa began to air her criticisms and frame her expulsion as an "escape."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Many experts have warned that the President and his devotees exhibit the hallmarks of a cult movement. The similarities begin with a man who has built a following based on personality and little else. In business, he focused on selling the Trump name. On TV, he pitched a character whose success far exceeded reality. In politics, Trump promoted himself over policies. It was "I alone can fix it." Now, as President he says things like, "I'm the only one that matters."</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Trump isn't necessarily deliberate in using cult leader methods, but he does seem to tick many of the boxes. He draws others in by emphasizing that they have been treated unfairly and need to be protected from a world full of dangers. And those dangers range from immigrants to Muslims to terrorists to our very own government agencies. He promises that he will reward their loyalty. Then he demonstrates that he will punish dissenters in a cruel and ruthless way.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">The big campaign rallies that Trump has continued to conduct offer grand displays of the cult leader at work. When he ridicules protesting NFL players as "sons of bitches" or mocks the likes of Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Massachusetts, or Rep. Maxine Waters, D-California, he's serving up enemies the crowd can regard with contempt. By stirring this hatred, he revs up believers and rewards their commitment. He also reminds everyone that enemies -- and presumably this would include defectors -- can be treated roughly.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Of course, there is no cult without top apostles who use their skills to help keep the system humming. Before he became Trump's legal apologist, Rudy Giuliani was a respected former mayor of New York. Now he is a human pretzel, contorting himself to protect the President from a special counsel who has shown that some of the individuals who worked on the Trump campaign have questionable ethics at best -- and have committed criminal acts at worst.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Inside the administration, as Attorney General Jeff Sessions endures Trump's mockery, he exhibits the resignation of a weary believer who fears being excommunicated. Vice President Mike Pence looks every bit the sycophant as he praises Trump at every turn, and Press Secretary Sarah Sanders displays a classic us-against-the-world cult attitude as she insults reporters.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">For a time, Manigault Newman was a top member of the Trump cult, too. Although many had criticized the President for his handling of the Charlottesville tragedy, she came to his defense -- telling ABC's Nightline, "he is not a racist." Now she is reversing her position and alleging that she was offered a $15,000 per month job to work on the President's re-election campaign in exchange for her silence. She chose instead to speak out and, as an apostate, threatens to do serious damage to the cult leader.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">Other apostates, including former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, alleged former sex partners Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, and campaign operatives such as Rick Gates and George Papadopoulos threaten to do even more damage. This is generally how cults are brought down -- from the inside.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-size: 14pt; padding: 0in;">If the pattern holds, the revelations will be ever more shocking, and the response will be ever more intense, until the truth overwhelms the leader's spell. The time can't come too soon for a nation in Trump's thrall.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">Michael D'Antonio is author of the book "Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success" (St. Martin's Press). The opinions expressed in this commentary are his. View more opinion articles on CNN.</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><w:lsdexception align="center" locked="false" msonormal="" name="Grid Table<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=" priority="52" style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; line-height: 18pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Times; font-size: 8.5pt;"><input tabindex="-1" type="text" /> </span><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Times; font-size: 8.5pt;">Mark as complete</span><span style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Times; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></w:lsdexception></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">binsightfl1</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Aug 14</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Omarosa and the Cult of Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">The article reads well, but it omits the elephantine,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">yet unspoken question in the room, namely, if this<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">is how Amarosa truly feels, then why did she stay <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">until she was fired. Why did she not quit when she<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">"realized" who the Donald really is? While, I do not<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">doubt that her book will make a stir, her credibility<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">will still be in doubt to many. Regarding whether it <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">will topple the Donald, I think it would have to have <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">to have reached critical mass for Trump to implode.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Perhaps that time is near-when all of the malignant<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">tumors start to metastasize-no longer to be denied.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Perhaps that additive admixure has arrived. Still, I<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">must remind everyone that we thought the Planet<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Hollywood,or whatever it was called, interview with <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Billy Bush would have been sufficient to sink him,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">but it did not. He has fired his metaphorical pistol<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">down Fifth Avenue many times now, in full view of<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">everyone, yet no one has disarmed him yet. Let's<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">see what becomes of the "witch hunt."<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Burton<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;">--</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt; padding: 0in;"><><><><br />To post to this group send to:</span><span style="color: #888888; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche@googlegroups.com</span></span><br />Clio's Psyche is sponsored by The Psychohistory Forum. For questions visit:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche.org</span></span><br />Digest is available on request and sends no more than 1 email a day.<br />Home:</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">http://groups.google.com/group/cliospsyche</span></span><br />---</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><br />You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clio’s Psyche" group.<br />To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">cliospsyche+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</span></span>.<br />For more options, visit</span> <span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</span></span>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">bdagostino2687</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #666666; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Aug 14</span><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Omarosa and the Cult of Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Yes, Burton, that is the question Omarosa's critics are all asking--why didn't she quit? But I think the answer is straightforward--she was in a cult and as long as it was working for her, she rationalized the questionable things she was doing in the name of the leader, like most cult members. She didn't leave the cult voluntarily, but was kicked out. Under those circumstances, of course, we have to assume that her book is self-serving and rationalizes what happened to her, rather than serving as a paragon of authentic self-reflection. However, there is ample independent evidence that Trump is indeed presiding over a cult and so far Omarosa is the only insider who is willing to publicly blow the whistle, knowing that the cult is going to respond with a no-holds barred campaign of character assassination. This is quite laudable considering that she could have instead cashed in her White House experience and her role as a Black apologist for the Republican agenda and made a successful career in the world of conservative media/entertainment/politics. Michelle Goldberg's column in the New York Times yesterday pointed this out and noted that this distinguishes Omarosa from all the others who have left the Trump White House; see </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;"><span style="border: none; color: #6611cc;"><span style="border: none;">https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/opinion/columnists/omarosa-unhinged-book-trump-cult.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left<span style="border: none;">-region</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Times; padding: 0in;">Having said all this, I completely agree with your point that Trump's presidency is proving more resilient than any of us predicted, and no one event such as this book will be a fatal blow all by itself. What I found interesting and important about D'Antonio's article is that he brings to bear exactly the right sociological/psychological paradigm for understanding Trump's resilience--that of cult dynamics. The last featured speaker at the IPA conference on May 30--Daniel Shaw--presented on this exact topic. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #999999; font-family: Times; font-size: 6pt;">- show quoted text -<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Re: [cliospsyche] Omarosa and the Cult of Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Yes, Brian, I agree that Amarosa is no dummy.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Even if I were to regard her as slimy, I still will<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">acknowledge how canny she is. I'm sure that's<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">why she made and kept the tapes to begin with. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">I do like the "cult" explanation. It makes sense,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">at least insofar as having a strong resemblance<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">to ones that have been described before. And,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">it is true, the very act of "ratting out" the boss,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">even after being unceremoniously discharged,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">is very dangerous, yet that's exactly what she<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">has done. I don't think she will get enough $$<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">simply from the sale of her book to mitigate<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">against the damage she will experience post<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">Donald, or even from the exposure/publicity<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">she will assuredly garner. So, yes, it takes a<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">certain amount of street-fighter instincts to do<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">what she did--self-serving notwithstanding. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;">me</span></b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 10pt;"> (Patrick McEvoy-Halston change) <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;">Re: Omarosa and the Cult of Trump<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 13.5pt; padding: 0in;">If the American public likes what he's doing, then nothing that is exposed about what he has done won't be made fodder for a narrative that actually endorses him and villainizes those who expose him. There is no super-ego censor to back the crowd down, for they understand that what Trump is up to is stopping people from individuating too much from their parents, that he is for stopping all real progress and making an example of those who've progressed too much (i.e., ostensibly left their parents behind to attend to their own selfish needs) which is more a parent-loyal task than anyone else out there could possible match. He is the "super-ego's" favourite son. </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-22149666505708916562018-11-12T04:10:00.001-08:002018-11-12T04:10:50.356-08:00Post at Les Miserables facebook group<div class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0in 5.35pt 10pt 0in;">
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<b><span style="color: #616770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/patrick.hallsteinmcevoyhalston?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdlC-R-R&eid=ARCtwdnWy9hdF0WhXq0v6HaBdZFxUecVz31khIfpHDHKl42pxUbF1IVppIQgFo06lFVfpLdgDEiVqHF-&hc_ref=ARTV6bYfU7aigyL4fzfnEiUXhBz_HRzU_0hIgwWmKvGrnF1hzdis7oIGh2sstgQZ7D8&dti=567509523361257&hc_location=group"><span style="color: #365899;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></a></span></b><span style="color: #616770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> shared a <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/567509523361257/permalink/1735168146595383/"><span style="color: #365899;">link</span></a>.</span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/567509523361257/permalink/1735168146595383/"><span style="color: #616770; text-decoration: none;">November 7 at 6:25 PM</span></a></span><span style="color: #616770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">To explain a bit better something I made reference to at today's morning meeting:</span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">You may have heard that that strange object spotted in our solar system earlier this year, the one that looked like a giant rock sliver, has been determined by Harvard scientists to actually be an alien vessel. This is for real --</span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><span style="color: #365899;"><a href="https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.4893926/mysterious-interstellar-comet-may-be-an-alien-probe-harvard-scientists-1.4893930?fbclid=IwAR1YnUI2arEsE9q_3pwJ4bIpTH5ntnBQ7tZ6lzlEtjv_gn7z3AYRhzryg6g">https://www.cbc.ca/…/mysterious-interstellar-comet-may-be-a…</a></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">What Harvard did not determine for us is whom are alien visitors might be, but I can say with some author</span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">ity that they belong to the alien race of GABATARS, of whom, it turns out, Gab... always seeming a bit -- and I hope this is of no offence! -- feline in appearance to me, is an advance scout. </span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Therefore, in an effort to thwart recent trends on how to behave diplomatically... and so actually behave diplomatically, I have asked Dr. Grace Augustine, who literally wrote the book about GABATARS, to help us better understand the meaning behind their diction.</span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">To start, she wants us to know that when GABATARS say "they feel you dog," they mean more than just that they have some sense of your contour texture, but that they really feel and appreciate your deep core... and they don't really think of you as dogs, whom although they try and be at peace with, do at times end up being speared with their loosed arrows (of this, I have actual video evidence).</span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">This posted video will help you in understanding of one of the most important of GABATAR utterances, so there are no misunderstandings... so two cultures can come closer to finally being bridged:</span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u5SiCCmVv0&fbclid=IwAR3tPppMPrdTe0d4h-PRn9waZcO002ylAT2QSzk7UuDkrlUn8BKPb3TaWNc"><span style="color: #365899;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u5SiCCmVv0</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-u5SiCCmVv0%26fbclid%3DIwAR0If0AULvc6_7vF4wvaPDi96bglTMJeB00rTUgj3zEgtNb3NcZNzPUV2a0&h=AT2jQe4RnD1D0skgeR1ewYmaQieofR3c7WsXkYccI0kmlRU6aE3MxpCoYj2yRwvPixkTFfQPJrkoxE2V80_gW8J8zcd06af54PqYi9fFoVjZstUmYuNRC5pn8G7wwKe2SHLCpXdtg-kJId4"><span style="color: #1d2129;">Avatar - I See You (Love Scene)</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #606770; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Love Scene, after Neytiri rescues jake from the movie Avatar Twentieth Century Fox Director : James Cameron Writer : James Cameron<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8501313560459278629.post-33019135474018686692018-11-10T04:01:00.002-08:002018-11-10T04:01:32.237-08:00NewYorker Movie Facebook Club discussion on Richard Brody's Most Dangerous Films of 2018<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Times New Roman"; margin: 0in 0in 10pt;">
<span style="background-color: transparent; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">As we approach the terminus of 2018, here's a list of films from this year that Richard Brody estimates as prompting us to be vain, ignorant, prejudiced, lazy, paranoid.... as doing the opposite of challenging us to become better, more woke, and so which cooperate in making us de facto agents of evil.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="background-color: transparent; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="uan Francisco Vinueza" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025" width="26" /></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">A Quiet Place: The movie’s survivalist horror-fantasy offers the argument for turning a rustic farmhouse into a virtual fortress, for the video surveillance and the emergency lighting and, above all, the stash of firearms that (along with a bit of high-tech trickery that is too good to spoil) is the ultimate game changer, the ultimate and decisive defense against home intruders.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">First Man: In its explicit content, and by artful omission, “First Man” subscribes to the misbegotten political premise that America used to be greater—and that the liberating and equalizing activism of the sixties ignored, dismissed, and even undermined that greatness.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Incredibles 2: Yet what’s chilling about “Incredibles 2” isn’t its smug self-promotion; it’s the superhero essentialism—the vision of born leaders with an unimpeachable moral compass to whom all right-thinking people should swear allegiance and invest confidence—that Bird proclaims through his ever more impressive C.G.I. craft.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Star is Born: Jack’s substance-abuse issues are aptly described and presented as a disease, but his willingness and ability to cope with them is viewed as inseparable from his artistic identity and fortunes; so, for that matter, is the impaired hearing and tinnitus from which he suffers. (His unwillingness to take steps to protect his hearing is depicted as a creative decision.)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">But it’s hard to shake the sense of a shift in Cooper’s version of this classic Hollywood story of a man’s star falling while a woman’s ascends, one that emphasizes the self-punishing, self-sacrificing aspects of the male side of the equation. In its depiction of the musician’s self-scourging for the public’s good, it edges into turf occupied lately by “Whiplash.”<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Annihilation: Besides Lena, the women are given no inner life whatsoever, with the exception of one point of suffering each: one used to cut herself; another is a recovering drug addict; one lost a child. And these troubles render each, as one of them says, “damaged goods”—as if these troubles sufficed to spur them into a virtual suicide mission. The notion is both trivializing (of their troubles and of their mission) and also essentially offensive.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Ready Player One: The movie’s fondly remembered eighties and nineties replicates its exclusions and its rejections; it’s the version that left Kathleen Collins’s “Losing Ground” unreleased, that left Wendell B. Harris, Jr., and Julie Dash and Rachel Amodeo without a second feature, that smothered Elaine May under snarky reviews. The movie’s icons of nostalgia provide a grotesque carnival of the undead, a uniform spew of icons emptied of substance, history, connections.<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Eighth Grade: “Eighth Grade” isn’t so much an amiable film as it is a film that yearns to be likable and strives to be liked.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Suspiria: “Suspiria” is full of disconnected, static, but attention-getting, details of vast historical import, and these adornments’ function is far more insidious than mere virtue-signalling or pride. They are bait for critical vanity, handing critics toys to play with, toys that can be defended as educational while offering little substance and less thought.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Infinity War: Thanos’s plot is explicitly, enthusiastically genocidal (of his own murderous efforts to make “trillions cease to exist,” he offers the Nazi-like assertion that “The hardest choices require the strongest wills”), and the movie resounds and rumbles throughout with a megalomaniacal energy that plays like arena-Wagner. It comes complete with hardcore light shows; absurd heroic gestures amplified by visual and sonic clamor; the neo-medievalism of weaponry forged by a dwarf master smith (Peter Dinklage), and enough varieties of Liebestods to fill the Met’s whole season.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mission Impossible: Fallout: In his 1846 essay “The Present Age,” Søren Kierkegaard decried the widespread tendency of the time—which he summed up as an age “without passion”—to “transform daring and enthusiasm into a feat of skill.” I’m not sure that these observations apply to the modern public at large, but they certainly account in significant measure for the peculiar critical acclaim that “Mission: Impossible—Fallout,” written and directed by Christopher McQuarrie, has been garnering.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"Life of the Party": For that matter, Maddie’s equanimity in the face of her parents’ split—rather, in the face of her father’s affair, departure, and financial malice—is almost robotically detached; it’s as if, when Deanna reassures Maddie that the divorce has nothing to do with her, the young woman takes that idea absurdly, placidly literally. In both films, the depiction of utterly benign adolescents and young adults seems less a matter of artistic conception than of marketing: it reassures parental viewers rather than scaring them, and it flatters younger ones rather than satirizing or scrutinizing them. (“Blockers,” with its idiosyncrasies and clever physical comedy, is the far better film.)<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"Tully": Reitman casts and directs the film with a peculiar blinkering that, perhaps unintentionally, defines cinematic normalcy as white. There are three prominent characters of color in the movie, and all of them play formal and orderly obstacles for Marlo to endure, confront, or bear.<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"I Feel Pretty": Renee’s newfound sense of self-love is kept, by Kohn and Silverstein, within bland and narrow limits, because the character is written not with any sense of interest or inquiry but to please and to flatter the virtual character, in the audience, who is meant to find Renee’s quest, success, and missteps edifying.<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"The Rider": Nonetheless, those scenes thrust into the foreground both an emotional extreme and a dramatic point (a cautionary vision for Brady, who sees the kind of danger that might await him should he incautiously return to the rodeo ring) that rest on a character, an identity, and a life story that remain flimsy and undeveloped, because Zhao preferred to shape a familiar dramatic structure in which simple conflicts and simple resolutions take the place of mental complexities.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"Deadpool 2": It’s hard to imagine a more persuasive dramatic argument to tease the self-proclaimed arbiters of their own just cause into admiration for violent solutions—and to lift the burden of guilt and the sense of responsibility—than the notion that heroes never really die.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"Upgrade": The element of nostalgia that “Upgrade” markets is for more than its high-tech advocacy of a low-tech life; it’s even for more than its realm of male action heroes and villains. It is, above all, for a mode of movie-making that’s conspicuously modest in budget but also modest in ambition; that, rather than relying on the freedom of low-cost filmmaking to create an individualistic (and challenging) movie, creates a conspicuous entertainment that has essentially no ambition whatsoever, no personality whatsoever, and that isn’t merely intellectually undemanding but emotionally effortless. [...] Rather, it’s nostalgia for a time when the interests of mass audiences and of critics frequently converged, when critics could find many movies in the mainstream that they could take seriously—and thereby find, in the movies, confirmation of their own cultural centrality.<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"Life itself": “Life Itself” is, for the most part, a work of heir-conditioning that sets up a domino-string of maudlin, sentimental ancestor-worship based on gratitude for the wealth that those ancestors piled up in a past golden age of possibilities, and which now exists only for newcomers to live long enough to tell the tale.<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">"Peppermint": A final fillip of cavalier connection between police and vigilante practices suggests that American heroism is defined by unlawful actions undertaken by the agents of the law, acting in their own name in unleashing violence against those whom, in their determination, deserve it. “Peppermint” is a movie of unmitigated ugliness, a reflection and intensification of the current of hate that is currently coursing through the American mainstream.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Note: "perhaps unintentionally" surfaces a number of times in his reviews this year... he clearly sees worrying signs in directors he is still hoping aren't at heart what they're depicting in film.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Juan Francisco Vinueza</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> lol</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547874578959171&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="hris Phillips" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1026" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Chris Phillips</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Also hates original star wars trilogy, loves prequels, fun at parties.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547877752292187&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1027" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> How long did u wait for that to post, Patrick?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547886682291294&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1028" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Not long. A day or two.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547886682291294&reply_comment_id=547886838957945&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1029" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Been waiting for my modest review of Melissa's film for a week.. Emailed the mod about it. Crickets. Not impressed.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547886682291294&reply_comment_id=547887168957912&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1030" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Mark Schaffer If it doesn't get posted, please post it under one of the discussions for the film. I've done that before. I'll read it.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547886682291294&reply_comment_id=548127505600545&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1031" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Mediocre year in my book. Last year way better.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #365899; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Hide 16 Replies</span><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1032" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Mediocre... in EVILNESS?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547887865624509&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1033" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> In filmic interest to me..IMHO. But I'm spoiled. Mostly watch 30s thru 60s films.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547888302291132&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1034" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Mark Schaffer I know; I was joking.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547890712290891&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> NP. But this year is like 8 for them.And 2 for us. Sad.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547894225623873&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="onnie Barrow" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1036" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Jonnie Barrow</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> On IMDb my average rating for films from this year is a whole point lower than 2017 (5.38 vs 6.42, respectively), but then there are some pretty buzzy film festival darlings and awards contenders that haven't hit UK cinemas yet...</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547894275623868&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1037" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Buzzy is as buzzy does.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547894428957186&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1038" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Lots of buzz is bought and paid for</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547894582290504&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="onnie Barrow" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1039" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Jonnie Barrow</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Undeniably, but I try to generate my own buzz by following my favourite filmmakers - beyond excited to see Widows later this week</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547894788957150&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1040" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Widows will follow the Hollywood heist playbook...Pretty familiar</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=547957498950879&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="aniela Ştefan" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1041" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Daniela Ştefan</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Jonnie Barrow Some examples?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548153198931309&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="onnie Barrow" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1042" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Jonnie Barrow</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Daniela Ştefan Recent examples would probably include First Man (i absolutely adored it) and Bad Times At The El Royale (flawed, but I liked it a whole lot) - very much looking forward to Suspiria and Beale Street, avoiding marketing materials for both like the plague</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548154228931206&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="aniela Ştefan" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1043" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Daniela Ştefan</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> I really liked First Man, too. I`ve found it to be very emotional.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548155648931064&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="onnie Barrow" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1044" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Jonnie Barrow</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> i wrote about it in a little more detail on my last blog post - definitely cracks my top 5 of the year though <a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjustanotherfilmcriticblog.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F10%2F31%2Fthe-month-in-movies-october-2018%2F&h=AT0S_x2mO2OAo2GZrsZ7q9MYdtJZR1_GmJrqkpw4xiX1Jw7L_ocUC2j-hEahxlj9z59FYh_cnR3z8DAxh3sNL6dVmeTMdhK9CznVr_uP5QQDcIq4gQgr2hK7jRu3Vq27VaWhiLBDAGDlPCc-WFEEFxjRcg" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">https://justanotherfilmcriticblog.wordpress.com/.../the.../</span></a></span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjustanotherfilmcriticblog.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F10%2F31%2Fthe-month-in-movies-october-2018%2F&h=AT2cO6rEQB-fH3iAmbPiAzzUKfreFOxNCWkpnlcFT74RagAQmOxKqecUmrBp1eRnDw-W2gU4dvemxcS1lK00LgwTShCgqEn6uzPkXA3AiVZt5vjfhLpqWbzkhlPMQAPgkq2ylVTwfSIXCiBzGqcKKxVpkxeI" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #1d2129; text-decoration: none;">The Month in Movies: October 2018</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjustanotherfilmcriticblog.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F10%2F31%2Fthe-month-in-movies-october-2018%2F&h=AT0xYBi9JFWNmV_KzFjuviNbTiyQ5szy1w6UeH2PYeqhkETCtfQf-EMhnXOkhf31wxyqCf17JV4sohVuqbLhj3p2dnG30PBSKhRFv33o5ot-T8Og7yu6gyYHZN3iE6q9jw-05oLWaqVYOIx6FWCagUwwQHAJ" style="color: blue;"><span lang="EN-US">https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjustanotherfilmcriticblog.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F10%2F31%2Fthe-month-in-movies-october-2018%2F&h=AT0xYBi9JFWNmV_KzFjuviNbTiyQ5szy1w6UeH2PYeqhkETCtfQf-EMhnXOkhf31wxyqCf17JV4sohVuqbLhj3p2dnG30PBSKhRFv33o5ot-T8Og7yu6gyYHZN3iE6q9jw-05oLWaqVYOIx6FWCagUwwQHAJ</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548156885597607&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Daniela Ştefan</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Jonnie Barrow Well, I`m looking forward to seeing "Bohemian Rhapsody" just because every single person I know and have seen the movie was blown away. Otherwise, critics reviews were not good at all (a fact that rises a question mark for me). Otherwise, "Bad Time at the El Royale" sounds interesting. Maybe I`ll watch "A star is born", although I really don`t like Bradley Cooper. Thanks for the recommendations.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548161772263785&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Jonnie Barrow</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> No problem! The only other version of ASIB I’ve seen is 1954, will hopefully watch the others as soon as I can. BR is fine as long as you switch your brain off and enjoy the music, but under almost any kind of critical lens it crumbles like a deck of cards</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548167488929880&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1047" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Guys, you're not speaking to the post... which is not about best movies, but movies that work at us in dangerous ways. There will be many posts later on that discuss simple best/worst movies of the year.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547887522291210&reply_comment_id=548191645594131&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> I think Richard Brody's analysis's are a huge help. Though I went at it provocatively, with a bit of built-in fun, that's fundamentally why I collected them together here. Anyone... share the same sense of them?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547904328956196&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Will Gish</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> A lot of these are product/assembly line films, in which the producers and screenwriters typically have more say in the content, themes, etc than directors. To apply the auteur theory to them ("worrying signs in directors..." etc) is a mistake.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Regarding Suspiria, there's enough talent involved there that it's phenomenally arrogant of a non artist like Brody to assume he knows more about what the art says than the artist, given he's an intellectual providing post hoc analysis of cinema-as-text and not an artist himself (as anyone who has ever worked as an artist can attest, the process is so radically removed from that of intellectualism there exists an essentially unbrigable gulf between them, even with intellectual artists such as Godard. And this remains largely true of craftspeople who work on product media).</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547919262288036&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1050" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Well, that's a way of keeping one's craft safely out of the reach of criticism... let's hope all you artists together, doesn't amount to a cult, because no one will be empowered, on the outside, to point out illnesses. He actually did make films, so at the very least would know if what you are saying is true... and so, being a person of integrity -- do you dispute this? -- would surely desist from making his criticisms, or put them forth less stridently, more "modestly," if he agreed with you concerning your interesting thesis of "unbridgable divides," but, still, regardless -- sometimes it takes an outsider? Brody is an artist of astute observation and consideration; of seeing how movies harm us/help us; how they could have been made superior. Plus, he's more emotionally healthy that most people... and so would be like Paul Krugman in his situation vis-a-vis other economists, even if he was a film maker, with Paul Krugman being hated and dismissed by much of his economist "brotherhood," who find some way to make an outsider of him, someone who is not somehow "in the know," despite his nobel. His "problem" isn't that he isn't a quote-unquote artist, but that he points out things people are aggravated to hear, is my sense. He also does create films, even now. Every film he reviews he envisions how it could have been altered, how it could have been improved... within his mind, and our minds, a new movie plays... even if at this point it's only vaguely outlined. It's convenient culture supplies us with the handy categorizations like the one you refer to -- unbridgeable divides... the doer vs. non-doer, the artist vs. non-artist -- to bring up to immediately cast stigma on a person, one a voice, so what troubles us about them... THAT STRIKES US AS MAYBE POSSIBLY VALID, HOWEVER DISTURBING, can be washed away from mind immediately, rather than be dwelt on. I'm noticing that no one, yet, has argued here that he is onto something concerning these films... and are less likely to, now that that the standard web that neuters and disenfranchises, that makes whatever he says, optional at best, for being untrustworthy by definition, is being applied by the commenters here. </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Thanks for the caution concerning directors.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547919262288036&reply_comment_id=548123458934283&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="att Channing" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1051" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Matt Channing</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Since when has a screenwriter had any say in what happens to his script once it goes into production?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547919262288036&reply_comment_id=548395115573784&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1052" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> We all know THAT joke.:0</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547919262288036&reply_comment_id=549390735474222&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">5h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1053" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Agree. Critics are pretty removed from the nuts and bolts of moviemaking..</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547958392284123&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="udy Mam" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1054" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Judy Mam</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> They have no clue about how a movie is written and made. Every critic should attempt to make a short film. I did. I learned a lot and ate massive amounts of humble pie. Having said this, Richard Brody is a pretentious killjjoy.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547958392284123&reply_comment_id=549296608816968&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">11h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="aureen Daniels" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1055" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Maureen Daniels</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Thanks for taking the time to put that together. I haven't managed to get to the end of one of Brody's articles yet, my eyes start to glaze over around paragraph 2.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #365899; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Hide 11 Replies</span><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1056" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> You get to paragraph 2?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=547964195616876&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="aureen Daniels" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1057" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Maureen Daniels</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Mark Schaffer I'm very stoical.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=547964418950187&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ark Schaffer" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1058" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Okaaay</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=547964805616815&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1059" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> You're welcome, Maureen. About your eyes glazing... this doesn't necessarily speak well for you. I personally find his work riveting. I couldn't possibly be more focused in.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=548103608936268&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R8%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="ean Caviston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1060" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Sean Caviston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Exactly Maureen Daniels insufferable to say the least lol</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=548114082268554&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R7%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Maureen Daniels</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Patrick McEvoy-Halston different strokes, eh. It doesn't reflect badly on me at all.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=548150465598249&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R6%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Maureen Daniels</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> By the way Patrick, since I was polite and appreciative of your post, I don't think much of your snide remark.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=548151162264846&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R5%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1063" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Maureen Daniels not being snide. I value you. I just don’t adulterate my criticism.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=548162415597054&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R4%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Maureen Daniels It does a bit; reflect badly on you, that is. There's a community of people who like to act trollishly towards Brody, and you are responsible for your "couldn't make it past the 2nd paragraph," obviously appearing to participate in and encourage that terrible trend, even if it was simple honesty, with no malign intent.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=548322632247699&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Maureen Daniels Problem I have is with the rhythm of the sentences. There isn't any. I like critical discourse I can follow like a well paved road even around the hairpin turns..Alas, most critics aren't very good writers. Just a few really stand out. Most of the others seem to be journalists on assignment, spiffing up the copy. But that's just me.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=549390325474263&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">5h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="aureen Daniels" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1066" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Maureen Daniels</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Mark Schaffer not just you. I feel the same. It also lacks any lightness and humour. But apparently, according to some people if you criticise the critic, you're a troll. </span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: inherit; font-size: 19pt;">🙄</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=547963768950252&reply_comment_id=549433302136632&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">3h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Torrin Daddario</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> And once again I make the argument that Mr. Brody cannot grasp the concept that some movies are simply fun escapism and not every film needs to be poetic, genre shattering, philosophic masterpieces that will inspire generations to come</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548128638933765&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><img alt="atrick McEvoy-Halston" border="0" height="26" v:shapes="_x0000_i1068" width="26" /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Escape... into survivalism and bigotry. “Escapism”... as shield?</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548128638933765&reply_comment_id=548149442265018&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> They don't? But he does work for the New Yorker, so some snobbery is required for that aud.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548128638933765&reply_comment_id=549391215474174&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2310%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">5h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Kip Sears</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> I'm no expert, but as someone who has spent 35 years in Hollywood working on movies, I think Richard is way overthinkinking these movies in his reviews</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Inspired by (forgive me this, Maureen) Maureen Daniels, I almost didn't make it past statement one. Inspired by Will Gish, not being "an expert".... in criticism, makes what you say about his analysis inevitably naive -- it's an unbridgeable gulf. Speaking for me ... and of course as someone who read your full post, with for example <a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/metoo?hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">#</span><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">MeToo</span></a> being person of the year in Time Magazine, we're in a time where "25 yrs of expertise" begins to seem more and more like simple pretext for silencing people who very much have something to say. I would never lead with it now.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548158408930788&reply_comment_id=548194298927199&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Kip Sears</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Let me get this straight. I offer the opinion that we may be reading too much into these movies, and your reply somehow attempts to link me to the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/metoo?hc_location=ufi" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">#</span><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">MeToo</span></a> movement? Dude, do you not see the irony here? Aren't you the same guy who went on at length trying to link Tiger Wood's improved golf play with his distancing himself from Donald Trump? As Sgt. Hulka stated so eloquently in the seminal treatise of modern warfare, "Stripes"; "Lighten up, Francis".</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> You've commented on my posts before. You're always onto how people are over-reacting, over-thinking, over-writing, over-posting... what you do, it seems to be, is casual machismo, where whomever is doing all the too muchness, or saying the esoteric and strange, can be made to be something to avoid being seen being like, like the plague -- for its associations of having earned being bullied -- which has the effect, if granted rhetorical legitimacy, of silencing people, people I most especially want to hear from... ON MY posts. </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">It's also whom the NewYorker wants to hear from, for over-thinking, or, that this, thinking so deeply on a matter is can be seem to some as overdone for it not being THE OBVIOUS, which apparently is readily accessible to anyone who thinks plain but often unavailable to those who "overthink" things, is what that magazine stands for -- its like almost literally on its masthead, and which this group, started by Richard Brody, recognized the deepest of film critics by Jonathan Rosenbaum, is most especially known for. It may prove not the case, but people like you SHOULD RIGHTLY here be the ones who begin to be viewed with suspicion when they summon in their posts the language traditionally used to quell anyone outside the accrued might of themselves from having a legitimate say. In some quarters, referring to your 25 years of experience might have some back down... and then not notice that none of these years of yours involved the experience that is relevant -- diagnosing how a film communicates; not how it was made, fashioned, worked upon, but how it is received. </span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><br /></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">In reference to Tiger Woods, I argued that the reason he is playing better is that he subsumed himself within Trump, a psychic act which makes him feel less the GREAT INDIVIDUAL, more powerfully modest and self-denying, and so therefore much less guilty of absolutely earned sin. But no more on politics in this post.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Kip Sears</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Patrick, respectfully, I'm not ALWAYS on to anything. Yes, I am of the opinion that Richard over thinks certain movies, and yes, I do realize he's doing his job as a critic. And yes, you do kill me with your over-the-top, critiques of things that read as if they were published by the Onion. But, yes, criticizing you on a thread you started is bad form, and I shouldn't engage in that.I promise to refrain if you promise to stop with the goofy psycho-analyzing of someone you've never met.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Roger Fritz</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> These movies are sexist and awful and I will prescribe meaning to them that isn’t there. If you dare to disagree with me then YOU are sexist and racist. First Man only describes a great and hard thing done by one American. It says nothing about the idea about America Is great now. For instance.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Roger Fritz to me, many of his observations here are spot on; no prescribing of meaning that isn’t there. I too have seen these movies. We need to sustain an atmosphere where valid but agitating conclusions, can still be heard from. From your tone, I don’t have much sense you’d be aggravated if voices like these, ostensibly corrupt voices like these, were disabled from being heard from.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Patrick McEvoy-Halston</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Kip Sears leave out the goofy psychoanalyzing next time—as I’ve said, this is exactly the kind of thing I don’t let pass, for my believing it shortchanges expression of voices I very much want to hear from. In regards to you, I will reset. Thank for your otherwise reflective and welcome reply.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Kip Sears</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Thanks Patrick. My initial comment was perhaps unnecessary cavalier and flippant. It really is my opinion that we sometimes prescribe meanings and motives in films that may or may not be there; but I will strive to keep the dialog above the line going forward.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Roger Fritz</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> I don’t agree...I have seen most of the movies listed and he’s prescribing meaning to them that you really have to stretch to find.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Kip Sears Its only a movie, Ingrid..</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548158408930788&reply_comment_id=549391665474129&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">5h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Kip Sears Facinating exchange here..</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548158408930788&reply_comment_id=549392072140755&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">5h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Mark Schaffer</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> The real irony is that when Hollywood was truly great, there were few academics around who would even think of seriously overthinking movie fare. Just didn't exist. Few academic essays on Preminger in the 40s or 50s. Now thanks to pop culture owning everything, every aspect of culture, especially midcult movies, must be pored over as if the are Bergman, or at least, Wilder. In 1979, I delivered a talk at the Popular Culture Association Convention on Cornell Woolrich and film noir. Scandalous! My grad teacher talked about All in the Family. Such things just weren't done. Guess we are to blame for all this. The old Hollywood guys would kvell at what has happened to the picha business and the critic industry. Its all very entertaining tho, to an old pop culture maven. Guess we won.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548158408930788&reply_comment_id=549393732140589&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">5h</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">Edited</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Campbell C. Kaiser</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Finally got around to reading this -- thanks for putting together this list. Very interesting -- haven't seen all. Food for thought</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548160092263953&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Toni Marlene Glikes</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> Happy to say I have not seen a single one of the movies on this list.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548243545588941&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Matt Channing</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> You missed out on a few really good films.</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=548243545588941&reply_comment_id=548395525573743&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%2311%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">2d</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">Scott Sentinella</span></b><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> And some still thought First man anti American</span><span style="background-color: #eff1f3; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Manage</span></a></span><span style="color: #1d2129; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #365899; text-decoration: none;">Like</span></a></span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;">·</span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"> </span><span style="color: #90949c; font-family: garamond; font-size: 19pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/newyorkermovieclub/permalink/547324192347543/?comment_id=549315138815115&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D" style="color: blue;"><span style="color: #90949c; text-decoration: none;">10h</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Patrick McEvoy-Halstonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02091303562091479924noreply@blogger.com0