Conversation about different waves of feminism, Oliver vs. Hoffman, and Affleck at the NewYorker Movie Facebook Club
Ellen Houlihan shared a link.
Were any NY film friends at this panel? Must watch video at the link. Imagine this was forbidden last year to Casey Affleck.
At a 'Wag the Dog' 20th anniversary screening, the 'Last Week Tonight' host questioned Hoffman over recent sexual harassment allegations against him.
Eileen Carson Gillies Haven't seen anything on Casey Affleck except we heard he had unwanted sexual encounters with women. Why haven't these women come out? I won't see another Affleck film - either Casey or Ben.
Magdalena Gorka and Amanda White are the…
Maureen Daniels I'm pretty horrified by this ambush, tbh. Thoroughly sick of this whole topic, it seems to have almost consumed the group to the point where any post not on the subject of alleged abuse is a delightful surprise.
Kiera Parrott Yeah, I'm pretty horrified, too. At decades after decades of powerful men getting away with harassment and abuse without one iota of consequence.
Jeremy Jules Edwards You make it sound like you’re the victim here and that is what’s wrong with our society, and why women feel unsafe talking about real abuse, complaining about your favorite fb groups posting bummer content
Maureen Daniels Really, Jeremy Jules Edwards? Don't mansplain 'what's wrong with our society' to me, especially not on women's issues. Here I am complaining, and there you are telling me I shouldn't. How dare you. And Kiera Parrott, it's not just decades. It's many centuries, millenia. Do you think you are talking to a school child? My daughter is older than you and I have been a feminist and political activist all my life. While you are all wringing your hands over whether some actress was groped back in 1973, there are women all over the world being raped, beaten and murdered on a daily basis. Their children are being killed and their homes and cities bombed. Why don't you go and be outraged about that abuse?
Kiera Parrott Maureen Daniels : #whitefeminism#thirdwavefeminism #intersectionalfeminism Look them up. You may have burned your bra back in the day, but feminism has and continues to evolve. We don't throw some of our sisters under the bus in a game of "who's oppressed or abused more." NOPE.
Maureen Daniels Ridiculous comment, Kiera Parrott. What do you think you are saying, that your feminism is better than my feminism? How evolved is that? Sex scandals of the rich and famous are a distraction for the gullible masses.
Maureen Daniels Incidentally, at the time of the infamous 'bra-burning', which was a one-off, staged event in protest at a Miss America contest in 1968, I was only 8. You don't seem very well-versed in feminist history for someone who thinks their version is so superior.
Kiera Parrott Maureen Daniels Nope. That's a complete misread and actually the opposite of what I said. The point is that setting up a hierarchy of concern or care (ignore or dismiss the "lesser" crime of sexual harassment in order to focus on the "real issue" of rape and sexual assault) is not feminism. It dismisses the very real, very damaging oppression that women face--both those who are assaulted as well as those who are harassed. And by setting up a value judgment in that way (that harassment is not that big of a deal compared to more violent forms of abuse), we ignore the intrinsic connection between the two. Harassment, like rape, is not about sex. Or flirting. It's about power. Who has it, who wields it, and who doesn't.
Maureen Daniels Ooo, really? Well, thanks for the lecture on what it's about.
Kiera Parrott Maureen Daniels Look, the bra-burning comment I made was argumentative and unhelpful. I shouldn't have gone there. I'm sorry. Truly, what disturbs so many (slightly) younger feminists is that we feel betrayed by the Second Wave feminists who came and fought before us. This goes doubly for women of color whose particular issues are often ignored completely. Yes, there's a difference between obnoxious comments, groping, and a violent assault. Of course there is. But right now we are in a *moment.* A potentially tectonic shift in the way women are able to speak, be heard (be believed!). And the ripple effects of this (I hope) will transform not just Hollywood but all industries. Silence is no longer an option for us. And I'm damn proud to be alive right now witnessing it.
Diane Lake Maureen Daniels: It's not just about celebrities. Tarana Burke, who started the #MeToo slogan long before it was a hashtag to raise awareness of the pervasiveness of abuse in society: "This reckoning appears to have sprung up overnight. But it has actually been simmering for years, decades, centuries. Actors and writers and journalists and dishwashers and fruit pickers alike: they'd had enough. What had manifested as shame exploded into outrage. Fear became fury."
Jeremy Jules Edwards "Sex scandals of the rich and famous are a distraction for the gullible masses." Yeah, I think you may have missed the point on this
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Maureen Daniels "While you are all wringing your hands over whether some actress was groped back in 1973, there are women all over the world being raped, beaten and murdered on a daily basis. Their children are being killed and their homes and cities bombed. Why don't you go and be outraged about that abuse?"
The kinds of people who can be trusted to do something about... any existing horror in the world, really, are to me the ones who begin to see basic, everyday activity that had been normalized but which had always been abusive, as alien and offensive. You'd admit that your speech here is reminiscent of the scolding mother reducing all her daughter's concerns into the inconsequential. My point would be the daughter who succumbed to your view, who didn't recognize in it a need to sustain abuse that a more healthy younger generation must learn to recognize and reject, would be neglecting actual abuse she had incurred, and that broken person can't be counted on as much to stop repeating the pattern.
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Kiera Parrott Great stuff. About this bit, though -- "Yes, there's a difference between obnoxious comments, groping, and a violent assault. Of course there is. But right now we are in a *moment.*" -- I think with this elision of the possibility of eternal, paramount importance, you keep something that shouldn't be hidden, still relatively hidden. Gropings and obnoxious comments can resemble the sorts of treatment a person can expect to receive early in their lives, that can devastate in their communicated lack of respect and love. If this becomes forefront, rather than comparatively more unusual occurrences like rape, we get a better sense of just how many people have been damaged in our society, and just how much the formation of our society owes to the diverted, perverse needs, of a quite sick overall population. https://www.nytimes.com/.../when-is-speech-violence.html...
Brain science distinguishes verbal abusiveness from mere offensiveness.
NYTIMES.COM
Kiera Parrott Patrick McEvoy-Halston That is an excellent point. You're absolutely right. The damage this causes is broad and deep, and is such clear evidence of the systemic forces at work. Thank you for pointing that out. Right on.
Eileen Carson Gillies Oh, come on, Maureen, we have to deal with this, at least I have to. Too serious to ignore.
Cailin Yatsko I was there last night with fellow TFI grantees. https://medium.com/.../real-conversations-take-hard-work...
Last night’s Tribeca Film Institute’s WAG THE DOG…
MEDIUM.COM
Maureen Daniels Some chance of ignoring it when it is constantly being harped on and dissected, on and on, over and over.
Tricia Walter You just scroll past it 
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Maureen Daniels Thanks for the handy hint.
Judith Karline Everybody knows about Affleck and his career remains untouched.
Elizabeth Lloyd-Kimbrel Just from a legal/philosophical standpoint -- "You've given no evidence to show it didn't [happen]." -- It is extremely difficult to prove a negative. (And that's why we've got "innocent until proven guilty.") Given Oliver's exceptional verbal skills and knowledge, I'm a bit surprised he'd make such an argumentative/rhetorical slip. (Also curious that Oliver is the one who asked people not to record the, um, discussion.)
Luis Eduardo Archundia Ortiz Since Holy Wood shifted to the sainthood business expect the loss of a whole constellation of show-biz stars
Patrick McEvoy-Halston There is a countermove available to them though. They can just say that they've come to see some virtue in Trump. Abusers who align themselves with him, just don't seem to elicit the same sort of interest and scrutiny. It's like they become just another head of the nativist beast that is chasing up all our skirts, and we have to accept them as an apocalyptic cretin that is making itself more and more comfortable in our universe.
Sandra Barton Damn! Way to go yet again, John Oliver! You never cease to amaze me, always doing the 1000% right thing!
Elizabeth Lloyd-Kimbrel And in counterpoint (or complement), this -- https://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../dustin-hoffman...
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Elizabeth Lloyd-Kimbrel It is a bit concerning that Jane Rosenthal tried to enter the conversation a couple of times and Oliver wouldn't pause to let her in. Btw, what "documentary" is Hoffman referencing, seemingly as some sort of defense of his behavior?
Patrick McEvoy-Halston I hope she is asked about that. Watching the video, I wondered if this was the case myself. Oliver bracing himself to not relent in this situation, might mean transference. He is arguing that Dustin Hoffman isn't showing that he is properly reflective; that he is being defensive about admitting that the problems that were in him, are showing signs of still remaining in him. If this is the case (and I think it is) and you want to provoke him into considering this, you shouldn't provide justified reasons for someone to feel they're right to resist you.
Andrea Hilton I watched the documentary Hoffman mentions, long before this controversy. I don't remember much about it other than the fact that he seemed like a real ass - so much so that the revelations about his behavior, when they became public, weren't surprising. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0123230/
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Patrick McEvoy-Halston To me what ends up happening with the two Afflecks is of high interest. We're supposed to in an era where, finally, you can't be too big to not be taken down. Ostensibly, no empowered men can now find social cues informing them that whatever may happen to other men, society is mostly still interested in protecting you. I'm not sure if this is exactly the case, though. I think if I was one of the two Afflecks I'd already be reading that society would to some extent do what Southern women are doing for Moore, that is, serve as a bulwark protector of them, to waylay accusers and even malign them, if they were being positioned for societal expulsion. The reason? I suspect that #metoo has momentum out of two arising elements: one, the one we only seem to notice -- the rise of a more emotionally evolved culture; and two, nativism, which seeks to use the movement to take down anyone who can't be imagined as playing whatever requisite part our society requires of them, as we drift off into a sort of a nativist delusional state for ten to fifteen years. Both Afflecks may be more dubious in their quintessential liberalism than Weinstein, and certainly Dustin Hoffman. Yet, somehow, whatever it proves they done to women, I don't see them not playing a significant part in our future unfolding national/societal drama. We've already assigned them parts, and we'll be furious at anyone who intrudes to break up our play.
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