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Conversation about Kevin Spacey at the New Yorker Movie Facebook Club

Jonathan Milenko shared a link.
Check out the trailer for Kevin Spacey’s next movie. Will you boycott?

J. Paul Getty had a fortune. Everyone else paid the price.…
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Eileen Carson Gillies I will not see anything with Spacey - so disgusted with him.

Marc Imbillicieri So tyhen what will you watch?
With that philosophy, your e narrowing yourself down to very few movies.

Doug Foster She's disgusted with Kevin Spacey. There are quite a few movies without him. She can watch one of those.

Sohail Shaikh By Boycotting a film one is boycotting and discarding the efforts of hundreds of people involved. 
Which in my opinion, is not only unfair but cruel.

Damien Johnstone All the money in the world couldn't make me see it.

Marc Imbillicieri So do you not listen to Wagner?

Brooke Grey Orr If all people only saw movies produced, directed, and acted by people who met the highest moral and ethical standards, they would see no movies, including all of the classics. The film industry employs thousands of flawed humans--just like all other industries.

Bobby Leo Garcia Discounting his alleged conduct as “flawed” is problematic, and arguably dangerous. 

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to demand our artists, politicians and leaders in general to be decent, and upstanding. Those possessing positions of power and influence hold a higher responsibility than the rest of us so I personally believe we as society have the right to hold them to tighter scrutiny. In fact, I think we all need to be better regardless of our reach or clout. 

I, for one, believe we deserve better.

David Dean Daniel Alleged. Your logic is flawed.

Sarah Fagan Greenberg Spacey has had a history--stories about young boys were around for years. As for sexual orientation, he coyly alluded to "coming out of the closet" in a Tony MC routine. His sexuality was common knowledge, yet it suddenly appeared in a statement as a "choice" (???--an idea pleasing to those who think it's only a choice), rather than alluding to the age of the boy at the time of the alleged attack. His statement conflated homosexuality with pedophilia. Had he not done this cynical P.R. move, it would not have been such an issue and I would not have paid such attention. Then again, he made a false P.R. move at the time he won an Oscar by passing off his personal assistant has his girlfriend. He called attention to himself when he could have said that his personal life was private. I may watch him wishing I didn't know anything about him. My father used to say that he wanted to know as little as possible about actors so as to enjoy their performances--suspend disbelief. Today, that's hardly possible.

Russell Colwell Boycott? Are you serious? Ridiculous.

Virginia Kelley No I won’t boycott, if it looks interesting to me I’ll see it.

Kat Van Spacey, to me, has never been warm and cuddly - ever. I don't enjoy him in interviews, much too remote and often condescending. Managed to like his work in spite of that. I am still unpacking his statement. I understand why it upset the LGBTQ community, but it's so Spacey to erect a wall to protect himself. What he did when 26 was really stupid and sort of on par for that age, but it's still creepy. Fourteen? Sure hope there weren't other minor boys - or girls. Fourteen is a a deeply formative age sexually for boys or girls.

Ira Ava Sobral This is the age-old question of can you separate the artist from their work in which the answer is invariably yes, maybe, and no. In my opinion, if their work is based on falsehood (Cosby) then no, it's tainted. But if there is no hiding of their questionable character in their work (Bukowski), maybe. It gets much easier once they are long gone (Wagner). Knowing that you're putting money in their pocket while they're alive feels gross though so I might skip, just because oh well plenty of other fish in the sea. And I can't really look at his face and enjoy the movie anyway.

Henrik Forsberg Boycotting secondary or third-party things that relate to someone you're offended with is such an American go-to. Like players kneeling in the NFL, and you boycott the entire NFL. Or a radio station that has the audacity to not censur a guest that speaks his mind about a war you're entangled in, and you boycott the entire radio station. 

I will see the movie, it looks too good not to. The only thing a boycott like this can achieve is either a small slump in opening night sales, or a small slump in overall sales. Both relate to the buying of a ticket, and I don't actually see a significant slump happening. Most people don't know, half of those who knows will soon forget, and the rest just don't care. 

So, if you personally don't want to pay for the movie (the only boycott you can actually achieve), then pirate it and watch it for free, and afterwards never advertise it by speaking good about the movie. Or just don't see it at all and then have a phobia for it for the rest of your life, just to really stick it to Spacey (who doesn't even know who you are, and certainly doesn't care about what you're doing in life). Good luck with that (y)

Maureen Daniels Of course not! That would be ridiculous.
rien Rourke
Brien Rourke I don't suppose you have a less insensitive word than "boycott".

Eric Culp Ha ha ha. "Boycott" insensitive. Perhaps "boyhammock" or "boybunk"? Oh, wait, is it the "boy" part? Bwahhahaha.

Charles Cunningham Boycott (12 March 1832 – 19 June 1897) was an English land agent whose ostracism by…

Brien Rourke That's him! The Irish can't catch a break! F___ the British.

Jonathan Milenko Anyone with a reaction to the trailer?

Doug Foster It looked kind of boring. It didn't make me interested in what happens to any of them, so I'll pass.

Noel C. Nowicki I sat at Lord Erne's table in his castle on multiple occasions in the mid 90's knowing that my Irish grandfather was rolling in his grave that I was breaking bread with the overlord of Charles Boycott.

Ian Nichols 1) It’s weird how no one in this thread has used the pedophilia, given that’s what is warranted. 

2) Few people seem to have an understanding that you can both unequivocally condemn Spacey and may be okay with seeing the movie. 

3) You can choose to see the movie while more importantly choosing to refuse to pay to show studios that his behavior is unacceptable, whether it happened once in the 90s or once a day since.

Maureen Daniels I'm not sure how the incident automatically makes him a paedophile, especially as the word is being misused. A paedophile is only attracted to pre-pubescent children.

Ian Nichols Maureen Daniels Anthony Rapp had explicitly emphasized that he did NOT look 14. Which I believe cause he’s ageless. Additionally, age does not determine stages of puberty. Again, why are we making excuses? I do not comprehend this.

Jonathan Milenko Kind of a lame way to boycott. Save your money, but don’t miss the movie.

Sarah Fagan Greenberg Ian Nichols The key factor, Maureen and Ian, is that 14 is below the legal age of consent.

Kat Van I brought up the age issue higher up. I think maybe since Spacey was 26, it isn't as horrifying, as 26ers of any sexual orientation are still somewhat immature in their judgement, and young gay men used to - do they still? - seek out older gay men because of the social constrictions of being a closeted gay. So maybe it's my straight brain that was disturbed by Rapp's being 14? I really can't say, just making assumptions based on my limitations to really know what this means.

Kat Van And I just turned on the tv to see Spacey is being accused by other men. Well, need to sit back and see how this shakes out. Not looking good at this point.

Sarah Fagan Greenberg Kat Van He was below the age of consent and according to him didn’t give it anyway.

Ralph Benner Has anyone actually read the full Buzzfeed article about Rapp? A good lawyer could punch holes in his story.

Kat Van Sarah Fagan Greenberg I understand that. No means no. But I was answering specifically as to why no one had used the term pedophilia. I didn't use it in my earlier post, but I did say I found it disturbing that a 26-year-old would pursue a 14-year-old. And now it appears this was not a one off. Spacey may well be a Weinstein - predator, dysfunctional. Inappropriate, sloppy, stupid sexual behavior is one thing, dysfunction is something else entirely.
Shame on shame. I did speak out the few times this happened to me. My career suffered for it. Do I do feel better that I fought back? Yes, but the anger never really goes away, because no one was punished. I think I helped a few other women in the process, so that's what I hold onto.

Maureen Daniels Thank you, Sarah Fagan Greenberg, I am aware of that fact. I abhor the misuse of language, in particular, strongly emotive language. Labelling someone a paedophile is such a huge, potentially life-threatening statement to make that I must protest its use to describe an alleged, unproven incident from 30 years ago.

Maureen Daniels Ralph Benner, I've just read it. Sounds like an awful lot of nothing actually happened.

Dennis M Robles Movies are a collaborative effort, it's not about one individual even if it's a mogul, director, etc. So no.
oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones If it's good, I'l watch it. Mark Wahlberg and Michelle Williams are the biggest deterrents for me, quite frankly.

Maja Ristic Nope. But that trailer looks a bit boring to me anyway, so...

Marc Imbillicieri No, boycotting it is asinine. If you refuse to watch movies because some people involved have done bad things. By that logic, one shouldn't listen to Wagner because he was a virulent bigot and all around awful person. By that logic, one should never buy an Apple product because Steve Jobs was a terrible person who refused to donate to charity, denied paternity of his daughter for the first few years of her life, and gave her mum a pittance while he had become incredibly rich. 
I can guarantee you ever actor, actress, and director in Hollywood has committed adultery. Creative and talented people are often the most personally flawed, so if you refuse to consume art made by people who have done bad things, you're really narrowing yourself, and for what? What practical, negative result comes from watching a Polanski movie? Does he rape a kid for every person who watches one of his movies? Where is the logic in 'This person committed sexual assault, thus I will not consume his material'? How do you get form A to B?
Lastly, even if you've never done something as bad as these guys, you'll probably find that you're not as good a person as you think if you do a little self-reflection. How would you like it if your boss said 'Your idea is good, but you cheated on your girlfriend back in high school so we won't implement it.'? Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

Ian Nichols I’m hesitant to equate physical harm/intrusion with bigotry and vitriol. Can you explain how they’re the same?

Marc Imbillicieri Ian Nichols That's beside the point. The point is: Why should you not watch a movie just because someone in it has done an awful thing?

Ian Nichols Is it? The question above was posed as whether or not you will boycott, not why or why not you should boycott, which is what your post seems to be answering. So I’m intrigued as to why we’re addressing our decision to boycott as antithetical to unequivocally condemning what Spacey has done. There seems to be a lot of excuse-making for a Spacey as a source of comfort for those who choose not to boycott.

Sarah Fagan Greenberg Agreed. While not boycotting an entire movie and all those who worked on it, it's possible to be distracted by Spacey's performance in it, isn't it?

Maja Ristic Oh, more material is surfacing - latest news: Dustin Hoffman accused of 'sexual harassment' . Maybe we should boycott him as well?

Marc Imbillicieri Absolutely not. Especially since the allegations (as with Spacey) have yet to be proven.

Maja Ristic I know. I was being sarcastic.

Terrence C Briggs Is the movie any good?

Chris Okum Something strange is going on in this country right now, and I can't quite figure out what it is. If sexual harassment - based solely on hearsay - is grounds for destroying someone's life and career - and for a lot of people this seems to be the case right now - then how about we start at the top and get rid of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and The President of the United States? Why are people only focusing on Hollywood? This seems to me to be about something else. And I am not talking about Harvey Weinstein, who allegedly raped people. Rape is a crime and should be dealt with accordingly.

Terrence C Briggs "Why are people only focusing on Hollywood?" <= Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly, and Mark Halperin disagree.

Chris Okum Terrence C Briggs I meant all people in the entertainment industry, including the Fox people.

Patrick McEvoy-Halston Chris Okum I think you're right to probe. Places people like to imagine as people living out their dreams and having the time of their life -- an endless party -- is where we're very concerned now to transmogrify into havens of pretty much literal demons.

"This morning I asked Mike Oreskes for his…

Maureen Daniels It isn't just in the US but the UK as well. It is like a mass hysteria fomented by the media , who know sex sells, and encouraged by politicians because it is a useful distraction from how they are screwing you. It is also useful as mud to throw at people to be made to go away.

Judith Karline Women who've been trapped in non-disclose agreements or have quit because they won't be believed are speaking out. Believe me when I tell you sexual harassment in the workplace is and has been pervasive and even "nice guys" do it.

Patrick McEvoy-Halston Judith Karline But if we are left with no other explanation than these men are essentially evil, and as the number of men revealed as predators in Hollywood and Washington is quite epic in terms of numbers, this wonderful moment where victimized people are finding their time of being shamed and abandoned is finally over will broach soon into another very dark terrain: that two of the three (the other being New York City) most powerful liberal concentrations of power, places that have held themselves as morally superior to racist, homophobic, regular America, are in fact dense homes of near literal demons and devils, who bathe in other people's pains. The populist rightwing is going to eat this up, and their stance on female empowerment, on victim empowerment, isn't so good.

Terrence C Briggs "we are left with no other explanation than these men are essentially evil" <= A more nuanced reaction would be, "we are all capable of evil". Like bigotry, harrassment is NOT something that is only committed by ogres and trolls.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston There are already damaging unintended negative consequences. As pedophiles in Hollywood are outed, predators of children, a link between pedophilia and homosexuality will gain traction again, and hence homosexuality as a perversity, and hence a lot of leftwing science as fake news, imposed on most Americans to de-centre them, and to empower people who hate them.

Terrence C Briggs Um... what? Some predatory behavior targets adult victims of opposing genders.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Terrence C Briggs But the troll image is coming up, or rather, because it's being linked to empowered Jews, to demons who dine on other people; lots of other people... traditional antisemitic images are playing in people's minds right now, is my judgment. If someone hasn't written about this, they should.

Judith Karline Patrick McEvoy-Halston Nobody is saying all men are evil, that's ridiculous. But the numbers of women coming forward and the people they're coming forward against....if you're a woman...don't surprise you at all. My first sexual harassment in my life occurred when I was 5 years old...I was molested by a neighbor's son. It didn't end there. It's been pervasive through my life. I could write a book. No lie.

Patrick McEvoy-Halston Judith Karline Right, I know it's wide spread. But if we had, say, a culture that understood all predatory behaviour as having origins in child abuse, we would be doing two things right now: praising and supporting the women and child victims who are finally having their shame absolved, finally feeling self-pride again, and prosecuting all these men but towards an end of placing them all in arenas of treatment... of care. This might be a bit in play in places like Sweden, Scandinavia, but it's not currently here. Instead our culture sees these men as having chosen to hurt women, for their own pleasure, with their being absolutely able to have done differently. In my judgment, our current situation is to see them as evil. And in a time of rising rightwing populism, for what it will do to cripple two of the most important centres of Democratic sentiment and power, it's going to mean it terribly backfiring upon us.

Judith Karline Women now feel empowered to speak out. No...we don't all always have concrete proof outside of our own testimony. And in the case of Hollywood...there are non-disclose agreements made and just the male power structure blackballing a woman who refuses to fuck them to get a role. But knowing society favors the male narrative over the female narratie in sexual assault and rape situations...there's a built in fail-safe for men. Most women don't come forward because coming foward is a crap most cases the male is going to be seen by police and the justice system as more credible. Your whole sex life and lfe decisions are put up to the public to justify why you should be able to 'cry rape' when you're actually raped.  

I've been raped twice in my life. I never went to the authorities or even my family. I didn't want to be blamed for it. I could not handle being attacked a second time. Unless you've been raped, you could not understand.

Patrick McEvoy-Halston Judith Karline Okay. You're feeling a bit more empowered to speak out... maybe quite a bit: each day, more and more predators who kept their victims silent, are finding those they've victimized feel the atmosphere has shifted in their direction, and now go on the attack.
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