Friday, November 10, 2017

Discussions about "All the Money in the World" at the NewYorker Movie Facebook Club


Jonathan Milenko shared a link.
A few weeks ago, two movies highest on my radar were "All the Money in the World" with Kevin Spacey and "The Upside" from Weinstein. Now, I don't know what I want to watch.  
Anyway...


Sony Pictures is considering moving the release date of “All the Money in the World” and is weighing canceling its American Film Institute premiere next week,…
VARIETY.COM
artin Levy de Andrade
Martin Levy de Andrade Life is a box of chocolates.

izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson the film does not belong to Weinstein or to Spacey...it belongs to the creators, the directors, the screenwriter and all the other crew who made the film possible. to not see a movie because of one person is silly
oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones I sort of agree. But some of the profits will go into Spacey's pockets. And for some people they just can't stomach the thought of their money "rewarding" him in any way.
onathan Milenko
Jonathan Milenko Roxanne Jones Profits? Actors are demanding, and getting, a percentage of the gross these days. First two weeks, the cinema only makes money on the concessions.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson not all actors get a share of the profits...and not for all movies
Roxanne Jones Profits, gross, whatever. There are people who don't want their money going to people like Spacey, Weinstein, Woody Allen, R. Kelly, Roman Polanski, etc. *shrug*
uzanne Kulperger
Suzanne Kulperger Sure, let’s keep supporting sexual predators.
oxanne Jones


Heather Unruh, a longtime television journalist in…
NYTIMES.COM
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson yes but that's Spacey, not the director nor the rest of the crew
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson by now it has been established that Spacey is a rotten egg and that he probably did all the nasty things they say. That's not going to stop me from seeing the movie.
oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones If you want to see it, you should see it. For some people, this is a difficult ethical question. But that shouldn't prevent anyone from doing as they wish.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson yes and honestly there's going to be a lot of reports, but in the end, if you read what Spacey's brother said their childhood was like, it is obvious that the man needs a lot of help, and probably some jail time.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson but that does not preclude me from seeeing the movie, nor thinking that he's one of the greatest actors of his generation.
smenia Dibble
Esmenia Dibble Lizzie Nicholson I agree. I have always admired him for his awesome talent. Ok, he is morally corrupt but Hollywood has always been a hotbed of ... sin, for want of a better word. He is NOT the only one, people. There are many many many others. I dunno, but comparing him and Weinstein, the latter takes the cake.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson Hollywood is as much an artist's mecca and a skin trade. it was always that way, and it will probably continue to be that way
at Van
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson He needs help. Jail works for no one, really. But getting help isn't going easy on him either. People always think that's a walk. It isn't. If it were, we would all be brilliant and normal. There would be no wars or greed or abuse, etc. Forcing someone to turn their psyche inside out is surely brutal, and that person still may not be cured, but merely contained. We need more brain science, we need this waaaay more than robots driving our cars.
And then there is the question of how much does "madness" contribute to art, to the medium that helps us understand each other? What does his horribleness teach us through his acting.
It can complicated, I guess. 
Right now, it's hard to think about him. He pushed my buttons in interviews, so my instinct was, "I don't like this man."
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson well if he has not raped anyone, than yes but otherwise no, rape is rape and it cannot just be swept under the carpet. If the worse he's done is harass, touch, grab and so forth then maybe the best thing is community work and lots of rehabilitation.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson i think losing his career, his reputation, his respect will be already hard punishment, but it' s not enough. he has to reckon with his demons and his actions
at Van
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Pedophiles "merely touch" and do incredible damage.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson yes, but he is not yet classified as a paedophile...he has been so far classified as someone who comes on to young men
Lizzie Nicholson although one was 14 apparently
at Van
Kat Van He doesn't have to be a pedophile, that wasn't my point. My point was that damage isn't just rape. Touch can be damaging.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson no, you're equating children with men, or young men.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson it's not the same
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Our neighborhood had a pool. One summer, when my friends and I were 14 or turning 14, two of our neighbor boys decided they were going to shove their hands into the bathing suit bottoms of the girls at the pool for fun.
When it happened to my best friend, she told no one and did not come to the pool for over a week. She didn't even tell me. I did notice that they were near her when she hauled herself out of the pool and ran, and I remember them laughing.
Then one of them did it to me. I hauled off and slugged him. Then I launched myself out of the pool with fury and screamed bloody murder at the lifeguard to remove them, then I went to the manager and demanded they be banned. They were for that summer, and I don't believe they ever returned.
I then, in my naivety, yelled at my best friend for not warning me, for retreating and not protecting anyone else. The shame had consumed her. We had very different ideas about sex; she went straight to shame while I felt I owned myself, and I went right to self-protection.
She was changed for the rest of the summer and did not want to see these boys when we returned to school.
I think that's damage, and that was just touching. It was peer to peer, so no adults hurt her. You cannot tell someone how to react, and you cannot judge them if they "can't handle it."
amela Royce
Pamela Royce Lizzie Nicholson people often refer to what his brother has said about their childhood, but I have never seen an article about it. Can you provide a link?
alph Benner
Ralph Benner The young man is now nineteen. Why is he hiding behind his mother to tell his story?
at Van


“We’re not too surprised. And we know that…
PAGESIX.COM
at Van
Kat Van And one more thing. My friend, my best friend, was mad at me for making a scene, because then she would be known as the girl who was friends with the girl who got touched by the boys. So yeah, we had a big fight and then some. She abandoned me this way two more times, the third was the last. I protected all the rest of the girls that summer and instead of saying thank you, she said I ruined my reputation and hers. Go figure. (No one thanked me, though some girls who would not speak to me before were nice to me all of a sudden.) The boys’ reputations were just fine, according to her, but not mine. This was 197, if that helps with perspective.
So before anyone goes way too far down the raod here, we need to let the info come out. If anyone wants to jump ship before that, that’s perogative.  I  ...See More
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amela Royce
Pamela Royce Kat Van Thank you for the article.
Okay, I have read the PageSix article. The home life that the brother describes is horribly familiar, not because of my own immediate family (which was not like that!) but one that a relative married into. I visited that household only once about age 9-10, was inside the house briefly, and in the backyard for perhaps less than hour. But the “darkness” was palpable, indoors and out. Years later, after the divorce, it came out that the grandfather was molesting everyone in the house, male and female; the son who was a relative by marriage was a child molester (heterosexual), as was one of his brothers (also heterosexual, not gay) who served time in prison. 

I am reading a book by a gay man whom I personally know, like and admire, an autobiographical account of his struggle with his orientation and his sexual experimentation—in his early teens. I will withhold (to myself; no one else needs to know) all judgment about the gay male experience, especially the adolescents and young adults, until I know and understand more about it.
 

But it is astonishing to me that Kevin Spacey, who by all accounts is considered to be very intelligent, and who at least pays lip service to liberal values including the inherent worth of the wage earner, would grope adults on set and in public places. It is a violation of law, and it is shockingly inconsiderate, even selfish and “entitled.” Boorish. I had expected better of him.

This alone is probably not enough for me to boycott his films. I admire his talent immensely. When I was on the fringe of acting, I had often said that I would like to ask him about his “process” for developing his roles. My conversational mention of him, here in Hollywoodland, was always—always—met with a studied silence, except for one woman who said, “He *is* very intelligent...”. I suspected she had more she could have said, but did not say it. I thought perhaps at the very least he would erupt in anger at people or something like that, as very talented people often do when others are not as quick as they are to perform very well. Sadly, I now know why his reputation was much worse.

What an Achilles heel.
 

amela Royce
Pamela Royce Kat Van I myself never told anyone about inappropriate touching. I think a lot of it has to do with the personality and emotional makeup of the individual involved, and has nothing to do with loyalty (or the lack of it) to others or the lack of concern for them. I admire you for being feisty and fierce and not putting up with it. When I was young, I would have responded more like your friend. As we become more open about these abuses, we can band together and support each other. We can make it stop or make the perps pay the consequences (which will deter some, but not all). I applaud you.
izzie Nicholson
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson We're talking about Hollywood Esmenia
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson I don't think that it calls for some sort of confessional here.let's stick to the subject
amela Royce
Pamela Royce Lizzie Nicholson I am sticking to the subject. The subject is Kevin Spacey, and would we stop seeing his movies. In giving context for my thinking, I gave information. That is hardly a confessional. It is easy to give yes/no answers to these questions, but a group like this is a good place for people to have a conversation. That requires going beyond yes/no/maybe.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson Pamela this conversation has gotten off the rails a while back, but I was answering Esmenia, I tagged you by mistake
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson And personal stories have nothing to do with Spacey
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson The subject was the pulling of the movie from the Oscar lineup, and whether people would go see it after the revelations. So as you can it's gotten quite a bit off the rails
amela Royce
Pamela Royce Lizzie Nicholson I scrolled back and looked. I realize I was responding to the original poster’s comment about not being sure what he wants to see, and not the story about Sony. My goof.
Lizzie Nicholson We both goofed
Kat Van Pamela Royce Oh, no applause. It's just me. I was not that evolved in many other ways at 14, trust me. I became a reporter, so just part of my personality to say "WTF!" And obviously, no one else called them out, so more reacted as you did. As I said, you cannot feel bad or be judged on your reaction, and my anger is only that she did not tell at least me.
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson I did not get off track and that wasn't a "confession." It was me saying that when you say rape is bad but touch isn't damaging, it's me saying touch is bad - period. I told the story to get it out of the Spacey context that he is "merely" a groper. If someone says he hurt them, he hurt them. Now it's up to the movie goer to decide what they can abide.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson don't put words in my mouth Kat Van. i never said anything about damaging. I just don't appreciate when people appropriate news and start calling people names before the fact are even established. My argument was that you were calling Spacey a paedophile. To me you're not only wrong, but you're using this forum to make a personal point, which is something alien to this discussion.
at Van
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Please reread the thread. I never called Spacey a pedophile. You put those words in my mouth. I'm not the one who veered off topic to prove a personal point. I'm not the one who said rape is bad and that groping is different. If you are going to post, then you should expect a response, and I did respond. I don't appreciate people taking the news and making it something it isn't, as Spacey has submitted himself for treatment, which is an admission of some level of guilt. Reread the thread.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson Kat, i've got a movie to watch...I suggest you move on
at Van
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Oh good grief. I didn't know you owned this space.
ob Machin
Bob Machin Have actual charges been brought against Spacey, or is trial (and summary justice) by social media now accepted as the way forward?

oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones No actual charges yet. But if Spacey didn't want to go on "trial by social media" he should've behaved himself all these years in the first place. In the end, the only person he can blame for his downfall is himself.
ouis-Philippe Boulianne
Louis-Philippe Boulianne I don't need a conviction to believe the victims.
hris Okum
Chris Okum Mob rules.
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel Last I checked innocent until proven guilty is still the law of the land.
oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones David Dean Daniel It is. And if Spacey is charged and tried then the process will take its course. Until then, people are free to make their own opinions about how they regard him.
onathan Milenko
Jonathan Milenko Presumption of innocence so he's a free man. When there are several victims with consistent stories, that's strong evidence.
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel I don't necessarily think people are making their own opinions based on fact or reason, which is part of the issue.
Bob Machin Presumably the police don't think so or charges would have been brought...
ob Machin
Bob Machin Louis-Philippe Boulianne you'd make a fine juror...
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel I see so many people casting stones these days. Often at presumably innocent people, for example Lena Dunham and Woody Allen, yet we have a real legal system made up of professionals whose job it is to investigate, prosecute and punish wrongdoing. And no action has been taken because it is not warranted due to no merits to the allegations. And I suppose all of these stone throwers are without sin or guile...And often the opinions formed are based on media misinformation or just plain lies/defamation.
oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones "I see so many people casting stones these days." 
Many people don't ply minors with alcohol and make unwanted sexual advances at them. 
Many people don't aggressively corner women and masturbate in front of them, demanding they keep silent while they do it. 
Many people don't rape. 
So yes, many people feel comfortable casting stones.
"I see so many people casting stones these days." 
Because it's never a good idea to "cape" for sexual predators lest people mistake you for either an enabler...or worse.
smenia Dibble
Esmenia Dibble Is there a statute of limitations for Spacey or Weinstein?
oxanne Jones
Roxanne Jones Esmenia Dibble According to this timeline, a woman in Canada is suing him for incidents in 2000. So maybe not or it depends upon the jurisdiction?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41594672


BBC.COM
smenia Dibble
Esmenia Dibble Roxanne Jones I query because it seems that the "incidents" in both Spacey's and Weinstrin's cases happened long time ago, in terms of years.
Patrick McEvoy-Halston The idea that Kevin Spacey was HIMSELF a victim of sexual abuse, for years, during his childhood, is absolutely worth our attending to. What do we think happens to people who endured abuse? Do we like them ONLY if they end up seeming properly victimish to us? This puts a sort of class system upon the victimized; creates another category of person -- the victimized who themselves become victimizers -- obscured from our view and sympathy.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson there are implications at this time that he was probably raped by his father, like his brother, and that they suffered terrific physical and mental abuse from their father who was a nazi ideologically
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lizzie Nicholson Also, that there was no one else to turn to: his mother permitted it.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson Yes I read that especially in the case of the brother whose rape she abetted
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lizzie Nicholson Now there's a brave soul out there who'll have to attempt to explore Weinstein's childhood experiences as well, and see if there's some of the same. It's the right thing to do. It'll offer scant rewards, but some of us will appreciate some people's efforts simply to do what's right, and be inspired by it.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson I don't think there's an equivalency, but we'll see. In Weinstein's case, power created and reared the monster.
eg Greenberg
Meg Greenberg Can we watch All the Money still since it doesn’t look or sound like Kevin Spacey? 😬
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel Last I checked innocent until proven guilty is still the law of the land.
izzie Nicholson
Lizzie Nicholson you can't prove this kind of harassment or sexual misbehavior. There's often no one there but you and the perp, so it's basically taking the sum of all parts and drawing a conclusion
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel I understand the studio reacting to potential loss of sales. That is not what this thread is about.
en Eisner
Ken Eisner Really?
at Van
Kat Van He has submitted himself for treatment, which is an admission. The extent of the admission remains to be seen. I hope he is sincere. He has put out some incredible work, and is a major talent, so any way he can protect his work from his misdeeds/demons/illness (what do we call this?) would be commendable.
inda Flinner Collier
Linda Flinner Collier Its a much bigger problem than Spacey or Weinstein or all of the others who have harassed or abused women. This week at school an eighth grade boy asked my granddaughter and her friend if they were virgins. WTF.
len Martin Fitch
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atti Cassidy
Patti Cassidy absolutely!!!
Roxanne Jones As long as one doesn't have to pay for access to that poem so that the money doesn't go in said poet's pocket, that's good idea.
atti Cassidy
Patti Cassidy It's the movie. If you're going to cut movies from your diet that have questionable actors or directors, don't see anything by Hitchcock or Polanski. If the movies looked good enough to lure you before the scandals, they should be good enough after.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston But be honest: if the movies don't seem the same to you after knowing of the abusive that occurred "therein," then don't discount this transformation in yourself. It's probably connected to your very humane sense of anger and shouldn't be quelled.
amela Royce
Pamela Royce After I learned a lot about Hitchcock years ago, I could not watch his movies. It took time to compartmentalize the works from the man. 

There are others whose movies I avoid. They’ll never know. My one ticket doesn’t matter. 

We each find our own center of integrity. I cannot complain that others’ differ from mine.
Marc Imbillicieri This is so stupid. It's like saying you won't listen to Wagner because he's a racist.
Practically speaking, what happens when you watch a Weinstein, Spacey, or Polanski movie? Do more people get raped?
Spacey's career is already over, and Weinstein's is long g9ne.
amela Royce
Pamela Royce Sometimes you just can’t stand the sight of someone’s face. At least directors are off screen (except for Hitchcock’s cameo appearances).
Stephen Conn I still dig Verbal Kimnt/Keyser Soze.
uzanne Kulperger
Suzanne Kulperger Wow, welcome to the patriarchy and a perfect example of all that is rape culture on this thread. Disturbing. I need to screenshot this shit. This article applies to Spacey’s victims as well. http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/
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MARSHALL.EDU
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Part of this thread is about the sexual abuse and child abandonment that was incurred upon Spacey. Part of it was about explaining how someone could become a predator. I don't see how this necessarily works to excuse him or to divert all attention awayfrom those he abused. Only to understand what causes it so it doesn't happen again. Only to appreciate that being a victim of rape can make you into an abuser yourself.
ichard Biegen


Scenes in the completed movie with Mr. Spacey, who is…
NYTIMES.COM
onathan Milenko
Jonathan Milenko Wow!! But will Spacey still get any money from the box office ?
avid Kaiser
David Kaiser You know. . I know he's a bad person. But this is right out of 1984, and it gives me the creeps.
onathan Milenko
Jonathan Milenko David Kaiser you'd be right if this was a documentary.
ichard Biegen
Richard Biegen They are reshooting his scenes.
uzanne Kulperger
at Van
Kat Van Probably for the best.
Ernest Barteldes I say do the premiere. There are other people who worked on the film.


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