Jonathan Milenko shared a link.
A few weeks ago, two
movies highest on my radar were "All the Money in the World" with
Kevin Spacey and "The Upside" from Weinstein. Now, I don't know what
I want to watch.
Anyway...
Anyway...
Sony Pictures is considering moving the
release date of “All the Money in the World” and is weighing canceling its
American Film Institute premiere next week,…
VARIETY.COM
Martin Levy de Andrade Life
is a box of chocolates.
Lizzie Nicholson the film
does not belong to Weinstein or to Spacey...it belongs to the creators, the
directors, the screenwriter and all the other crew who made the film possible.
to not see a movie because of one person is silly
Roxanne Jones I sort of
agree. But some of the profits will go into Spacey's pockets. And for some
people they just can't stomach the thought of their money "rewarding"
him in any way.
Jonathan Milenko Roxanne Jones Profits? Actors are
demanding, and getting, a percentage of the gross these days. First two weeks,
the cinema only makes money on the concessions.
Lizzie Nicholson not all
actors get a share of the profits...and not for all movies
Roxanne Jones Profits,
gross, whatever. There are people who don't want their money going to people
like Spacey, Weinstein, Woody Allen, R. Kelly, Roman Polanski, etc. *shrug*
Suzanne Kulperger Sure, let’s
keep supporting sexual predators.
Roxanne Jones This just
popped up today.
https://www.nytimes.com/.../kevin-spacey-heather-unruh...
https://www.nytimes.com/.../kevin-spacey-heather-unruh...
Heather Unruh, a longtime television journalist in…
NYTIMES.COM
Lizzie Nicholson yes but
that's Spacey, not the director nor the rest of the crew
Lizzie Nicholson by now it
has been established that Spacey is a rotten egg and that he probably did all
the nasty things they say. That's not going to stop me from seeing the movie.
Roxanne Jones If you want
to see it, you should see it. For some people, this is a difficult ethical
question. But that shouldn't prevent anyone from doing as they wish.
Lizzie Nicholson yes and
honestly there's going to be a lot of reports, but in the end, if you read what
Spacey's brother said their childhood was like, it is obvious that the man
needs a lot of help, and probably some jail time.
Lizzie Nicholson but that
does not preclude me from seeeing the movie, nor thinking that he's one of the
greatest actors of his generation.
Esmenia Dibble Lizzie
Nicholson I agree. I have always admired him for his awesome talent. Ok, he is
morally corrupt but Hollywood has always been a hotbed of ... sin, for want of
a better word. He is NOT the only one, people. There are many many many others.
I dunno, but comparing him and Weinstein, the latter takes the cake.
Lizzie Nicholson Hollywood is
as much an artist's mecca and a skin trade. it was always that way, and it will
probably continue to be that way
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson He needs help.
Jail works for no one, really. But getting help isn't going easy on him either.
People always think that's a walk. It isn't. If it were, we would all be
brilliant and normal. There would be no wars or greed or abuse, etc. Forcing
someone to turn their psyche inside out is surely brutal, and that person still
may not be cured, but merely contained. We need more brain science, we need
this waaaay more than robots driving our cars.
And then there is the question of how much does "madness" contribute to art, to the medium that helps us understand each other? What does his horribleness teach us through his acting.
It can complicated, I guess.
Right now, it's hard to think about him. He pushed my buttons in interviews, so my instinct was, "I don't like this man."
And then there is the question of how much does "madness" contribute to art, to the medium that helps us understand each other? What does his horribleness teach us through his acting.
It can complicated, I guess.
Right now, it's hard to think about him. He pushed my buttons in interviews, so my instinct was, "I don't like this man."
Lizzie Nicholson well if he
has not raped anyone, than yes but otherwise no, rape is rape and it cannot
just be swept under the carpet. If the worse he's done is harass, touch, grab
and so forth then maybe the best thing is community work and lots of
rehabilitation.
Lizzie Nicholson i think
losing his career, his reputation, his respect will be already hard punishment,
but it' s not enough. he has to reckon with his demons and his actions
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Pedophiles "merely
touch" and do incredible damage.
Lizzie Nicholson yes, but he
is not yet classified as a paedophile...he has been so far classified as
someone who comes on to young men
Lizzie Nicholson although one
was 14 apparently
Kat Van He doesn't have to be a
pedophile, that wasn't my point. My point was that damage isn't just rape.
Touch can be damaging.
Lizzie Nicholson no, you're
equating children with men, or young men.
Lizzie Nicholson it's not the
same
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Our neighborhood had a
pool. One summer, when my friends and I were 14 or turning 14, two of our
neighbor boys decided they were going to shove their hands into the bathing
suit bottoms of the girls at the pool for fun.
When it happened to my best friend, she told no one and did not come to the pool for over a week. She didn't even tell me. I did notice that they were near her when she hauled herself out of the pool and ran, and I remember them laughing.
Then one of them did it to me. I hauled off and slugged him. Then I launched myself out of the pool with fury and screamed bloody murder at the lifeguard to remove them, then I went to the manager and demanded they be banned. They were for that summer, and I don't believe they ever returned.
I then, in my naivety, yelled at my best friend for not warning me, for retreating and not protecting anyone else. The shame had consumed her. We had very different ideas about sex; she went straight to shame while I felt I owned myself, and I went right to self-protection.
She was changed for the rest of the summer and did not want to see these boys when we returned to school.
I think that's damage, and that was just touching. It was peer to peer, so no adults hurt her. You cannot tell someone how to react, and you cannot judge them if they "can't handle it."
When it happened to my best friend, she told no one and did not come to the pool for over a week. She didn't even tell me. I did notice that they were near her when she hauled herself out of the pool and ran, and I remember them laughing.
Then one of them did it to me. I hauled off and slugged him. Then I launched myself out of the pool with fury and screamed bloody murder at the lifeguard to remove them, then I went to the manager and demanded they be banned. They were for that summer, and I don't believe they ever returned.
I then, in my naivety, yelled at my best friend for not warning me, for retreating and not protecting anyone else. The shame had consumed her. We had very different ideas about sex; she went straight to shame while I felt I owned myself, and I went right to self-protection.
She was changed for the rest of the summer and did not want to see these boys when we returned to school.
I think that's damage, and that was just touching. It was peer to peer, so no adults hurt her. You cannot tell someone how to react, and you cannot judge them if they "can't handle it."
Pamela Royce Lizzie Nicholson people often refer to
what his brother has said about their childhood, but I have never seen an article
about it. Can you provide a link?
Ralph Benner The young
man is now nineteen. Why is he hiding behind his mother to tell his story?
“We’re not too surprised. And we know that…
PAGESIX.COM
Kat Van And one more thing. My friend,
my best friend, was mad at me for making a scene, because then she would be
known as the girl who was friends with the girl who got touched by the boys. So
yeah, we had a big fight and then some. She abandoned me this way two more
times, the third was the last. I protected all the rest of the girls that
summer and instead of saying thank you, she said I ruined my reputation and
hers. Go figure. (No one thanked me, though some girls who would not speak to
me before were nice to me all of a sudden.) The boys’ reputations were just
fine, according to her, but not mine. This was 197, if that helps with
perspective.
So before anyone goes way too far down the raod here, we
need to let the info come out. If anyone wants to jump ship before that, that’s
perogative. I ...See More
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Pamela Royce Kat Van
Thank you for the article.
Okay, I have read the PageSix article. The home life that the
brother describes is horribly familiar, not because of my own immediate family
(which was not like that!) but one that a relative married into. I visited that
household only once about age 9-10, was inside the house briefly, and in the
backyard for perhaps less than hour. But the “darkness” was palpable, indoors
and out. Years later, after the divorce, it came out that the grandfather was
molesting everyone in the house, male and female; the son who was a relative by
marriage was a child molester (heterosexual), as was one of his brothers (also
heterosexual, not gay) who served time in prison.
I am reading a book by a gay man whom I personally know, like and admire, an autobiographical account of his struggle with his orientation and his sexual experimentation—in his early teens. I will withhold (to myself; no one else needs to know) all judgment about the gay male experience, especially the adolescents and young adults, until I know and understand more about it.
But it is astonishing to me that Kevin Spacey, who by all accounts is considered to be very intelligent, and who at least pays lip service to liberal values including the inherent worth of the wage earner, would grope adults on set and in public places. It is a violation of law, and it is shockingly inconsiderate, even selfish and “entitled.” Boorish. I had expected better of him.
This alone is probably not enough for me to boycott his films. I admire his talent immensely. When I was on the fringe of acting, I had often said that I would like to ask him about his “process” for developing his roles. My conversational mention of him, here in Hollywoodland, was always—always—met with a studied silence, except for one woman who said, “He *is* very intelligent...”. I suspected she had more she could have said, but did not say it. I thought perhaps at the very least he would erupt in anger at people or something like that, as very talented people often do when others are not as quick as they are to perform very well. Sadly, I now know why his reputation was much worse.
What an Achilles heel.
I am reading a book by a gay man whom I personally know, like and admire, an autobiographical account of his struggle with his orientation and his sexual experimentation—in his early teens. I will withhold (to myself; no one else needs to know) all judgment about the gay male experience, especially the adolescents and young adults, until I know and understand more about it.
But it is astonishing to me that Kevin Spacey, who by all accounts is considered to be very intelligent, and who at least pays lip service to liberal values including the inherent worth of the wage earner, would grope adults on set and in public places. It is a violation of law, and it is shockingly inconsiderate, even selfish and “entitled.” Boorish. I had expected better of him.
This alone is probably not enough for me to boycott his films. I admire his talent immensely. When I was on the fringe of acting, I had often said that I would like to ask him about his “process” for developing his roles. My conversational mention of him, here in Hollywoodland, was always—always—met with a studied silence, except for one woman who said, “He *is* very intelligent...”. I suspected she had more she could have said, but did not say it. I thought perhaps at the very least he would erupt in anger at people or something like that, as very talented people often do when others are not as quick as they are to perform very well. Sadly, I now know why his reputation was much worse.
What an Achilles heel.
Pamela Royce Kat Van I
myself never told anyone about inappropriate touching. I think a lot of it has
to do with the personality and emotional makeup of the individual involved, and
has nothing to do with loyalty (or the lack of it) to others or the lack of
concern for them. I admire you for being feisty and fierce and not putting
up with it. When I was young, I would have responded more like your friend. As
we become more open about these abuses, we can band together and support each
other. We can make it stop or make the perps pay the consequences (which will
deter some, but not all). I applaud you.
Lizzie Nicholson ???
Lizzie Nicholson We're
talking about Hollywood Esmenia
Lizzie Nicholson I don't
think that it calls for some sort of confessional here.let's stick to the
subject
Pamela Royce Lizzie Nicholson I am sticking to the
subject. The subject is Kevin Spacey, and would we stop seeing his movies. In
giving context for my thinking, I gave information. That is hardly a
confessional. It is easy to give yes/no answers to these questions, but a group
like this is a good place for people to have a conversation. That requires
going beyond yes/no/maybe.
Lizzie Nicholson Pamela this conversation has gotten off
the rails a while back, but I was answering Esmenia, I tagged you by mistake
Lizzie Nicholson And personal
stories have nothing to do with Spacey
Lizzie Nicholson The subject
was the pulling of the movie from the Oscar lineup, and whether people would go
see it after the revelations. So as you can it's gotten quite a bit off the
rails
Pamela Royce Lizzie Nicholson I scrolled back and
looked. I realize I was responding to the original poster’s comment about not
being sure what he wants to see, and not the story about Sony. My goof.
Lizzie Nicholson We both
goofed
Kat Van Pamela Royce Oh, no applause. It's just
me. I was not that evolved in many other ways at 14, trust me. I became a
reporter, so just part of my personality to say "WTF!" And obviously,
no one else called them out, so more reacted as you did. As I said, you cannot
feel bad or be judged on your reaction, and my anger is only that she did not
tell at least me.
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson I did not get
off track and that wasn't a "confession." It was me saying that when
you say rape is bad but touch isn't damaging, it's me saying touch is bad -
period. I told the story to get it out of the Spacey context that he is
"merely" a groper. If someone says he hurt them, he hurt them. Now
it's up to the movie goer to decide what they can abide.
Lizzie Nicholson don't put
words in my mouth Kat Van. i never said anything about damaging. I just don't
appreciate when people appropriate news and start calling people names before
the fact are even established. My argument was that you were calling Spacey a
paedophile. To me you're not only wrong, but you're using this forum to make a
personal point, which is something alien to this discussion.
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Please reread the
thread. I never called Spacey a pedophile. You put those words in my mouth. I'm
not the one who veered off topic to prove a personal point. I'm not the one who
said rape is bad and that groping is different. If you are going to post, then
you should expect a response, and I did respond. I don't appreciate people
taking the news and making it something it isn't, as Spacey has submitted
himself for treatment, which is an admission of some level of guilt. Reread the
thread.
Lizzie Nicholson Kat, i've got a movie to watch...I suggest you
move on
Kat Van Lizzie Nicholson Oh good grief. I didn't
know you owned this space.
Bob Machin Have actual
charges been brought against Spacey, or is trial (and summary justice) by
social media now accepted as the way forward?
Roxanne Jones No actual
charges yet. But if Spacey didn't want to go on "trial by social
media" he should've behaved himself all these years in the first place. In
the end, the only person he can blame for his downfall is himself.
Louis-Philippe Boulianne I
don't need a conviction to believe the victims.
Chris Okum Mob rules.
David Dean Daniel Last I
checked innocent until proven guilty is still the law of the land.
Roxanne Jones David Dean Daniel It is. And if Spacey is
charged and tried then the process will take its course. Until then, people are
free to make their own opinions about how they regard him.
Jonathan Milenko Presumption
of innocence so he's a free man. When there are several victims with consistent
stories, that's strong evidence.
David Dean Daniel I don't
necessarily think people are making their own opinions based on fact or reason,
which is part of the issue.
Bob Machin Presumably
the police don't think so or charges would have been brought...
Bob Machin Louis-Philippe Boulianne you'd make a
fine juror...
David Dean Daniel I see so
many people casting stones these days. Often at presumably innocent people, for
example Lena Dunham and Woody Allen, yet we have a real legal system made up of
professionals whose job it is to investigate, prosecute and punish wrongdoing.
And no action has been taken because it is not warranted due to no merits
to the allegations. And I suppose all of these stone throwers are without sin
or guile...And often the opinions formed are based on media misinformation or
just plain lies/defamation.
Roxanne Jones "I see
so many people casting stones these days."
Many people don't ply minors with alcohol and make unwanted sexual advances at them.
Many people don't aggressively corner women and masturbate in front of them, demanding they keep silent while they do it.
Many people don't rape.
So yes, many people feel comfortable casting stones.
"I see so many people casting stones these days."
Because it's never a good idea to "cape" for sexual predators lest people mistake you for either an enabler...or worse.
Many people don't ply minors with alcohol and make unwanted sexual advances at them.
Many people don't aggressively corner women and masturbate in front of them, demanding they keep silent while they do it.
Many people don't rape.
So yes, many people feel comfortable casting stones.
"I see so many people casting stones these days."
Because it's never a good idea to "cape" for sexual predators lest people mistake you for either an enabler...or worse.
Esmenia Dibble Is there a
statute of limitations for Spacey or Weinstein?
Roxanne Jones Esmenia Dibble According to this
timeline, a woman in Canada is suing him for incidents in 2000. So maybe not or
it depends upon the jurisdiction?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41594672
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41594672
BBC.COM
Esmenia Dibble Roxanne Jones I query because it seems
that the "incidents" in both Spacey's and Weinstrin's cases happened
long time ago, in terms of years.
Patrick McEvoy-Halston The
idea that Kevin Spacey was HIMSELF a victim of sexual abuse, for years, during
his childhood, is absolutely worth our attending to. What do we think happens
to people who endured abuse? Do we like them ONLY if they end up seeming
properly victimish to us? This puts a sort of class system upon the
victimized; creates another category of person -- the victimized who themselves
become victimizers -- obscured from our view and sympathy.
Lizzie Nicholson there are
implications at this time that he was probably raped by his father, like his
brother, and that they suffered terrific physical and mental abuse from their
father who was a nazi ideologically
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lizzie Nicholson Also, that there was no one else to turn to:
his mother permitted it.
Lizzie Nicholson Yes I read that especially in the case of
the brother whose rape she abetted
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lizzie Nicholson Now there's a brave soul out there who'll
have to attempt to explore Weinstein's childhood experiences as well, and see
if there's some of the same. It's the right thing to do. It'll offer scant
rewards, but some of us will appreciate some people's efforts simply to do
what's right, and be inspired by it.
Lizzie Nicholson I don't think there's an equivalency, but
we'll see. In Weinstein's case, power created and reared the monster.
Meg Greenberg Can we watch All the Money still since it doesn’t look or sound
like Kevin Spacey? 
😬
😬
David Dean Daniel Last I checked innocent until proven guilty
is still the law of the land.
Lizzie Nicholson you can't prove this kind of harassment or
sexual misbehavior. There's often no one there but you and the perp, so it's
basically taking the sum of all parts and drawing a conclusion
David Dean Daniel I understand the studio reacting to potential
loss of sales. That is not what this thread is about.
Ken Eisner Really?
Kat Van He has submitted himself for treatment, which is an admission.
The extent of the admission remains to be seen. I hope he is sincere. He has
put out some incredible work, and is a major talent, so any way he can protect
his work from his misdeeds/demons/illness (what do we call this?) would be
commendable.
Linda Flinner Collier Its a much bigger problem than Spacey or
Weinstein or all of the others who have harassed or abused women. This week at
school an eighth grade boy asked my granddaughter and her friend if they were
virgins. WTF.
Patti Cassidy absolutely!!!
Roxanne Jones As long as one doesn't have to pay for access to that poem so
that the money doesn't go in said poet's pocket, that's good idea.
Patti Cassidy It's the movie. If you're going to cut movies from your diet
that have questionable actors or directors, don't see anything by Hitchcock or
Polanski. If the movies looked good enough to lure you before the scandals,
they should be good enough after.
Patrick McEvoy-Halston But be honest: if the movies don't seem the
same to you after knowing of the abusive that occurred "therein,"
then don't discount this transformation in yourself. It's probably connected to
your very humane sense of anger and shouldn't be quelled.
Pamela Royce After I learned a lot about Hitchcock years ago, I could not
watch his movies. It took time to compartmentalize the works from the man.
There are others whose movies I avoid. They’ll never know. My one ticket doesn’t matter.
We each find our own center of integrity. I cannot complain that others’ differ from mine.
There are others whose movies I avoid. They’ll never know. My one ticket doesn’t matter.
We each find our own center of integrity. I cannot complain that others’ differ from mine.
Marc Imbillicieri This is so stupid. It's like saying you
won't listen to Wagner because he's a racist.
Practically speaking, what happens when you watch a Weinstein, Spacey, or Polanski movie? Do more people get raped?
Spacey's career is already over, and Weinstein's is long g9ne.
Practically speaking, what happens when you watch a Weinstein, Spacey, or Polanski movie? Do more people get raped?
Spacey's career is already over, and Weinstein's is long g9ne.
Pamela Royce Sometimes you just can’t stand the sight of someone’s face. At
least directors are off screen (except for Hitchcock’s cameo appearances).
Stephen Conn I still dig Verbal Kimnt/Keyser Soze.
Suzanne Kulperger Wow, welcome to the patriarchy and a perfect
example of all that is rape culture on this thread. Disturbing. I need to
screenshot this shit. This article applies to Spacey’s victims as well. http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/
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Patrick McEvoy-Halston Part of this thread is about the sexual
abuse and child abandonment that was incurred upon Spacey. Part of it was about
explaining how someone could become a predator. I don't see how this
necessarily works to excuse him or to divert all attention awayfrom those he
abused. Only to understand what causes it so it doesn't happen again. Only to
appreciate that being a victim of rape can make you into an abuser yourself.
Scenes in
the completed movie with Mr. Spacey, who is…
NYTIMES.COM
Jonathan Milenko Wow!! But will Spacey still get any money
from the box office ?
David Kaiser You know. . I know he's a bad person. But this is right out of
1984, and it gives me the creeps.
Jonathan Milenko David Kaiser you'd be right if this was a documentary.
Richard Biegen They are reshooting his scenes.
Suzanne Kulperger Good.
Kat Van Probably for the best.
Ernest Barteldes I say do the premiere. There are other
people who worked on the film.
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