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More discussion on "I Love You, Daddy" at the NewYorker Movie Facebook Club




Richard Brody
 shared a link.
A longer word on I Love You, Daddy: the release was cancelled, but—even apart from Louis C.K.'s misconduct—it's a disgusting film that never should have been acquired for distribution in the first place. (Absolutely not saying he shouldn't be able to show it—but that no responsible company should ever have gotten behind it.) I saw it a few weeks before the stories came out; it was an infuriating experience—like watching an act of cinematic gaslighting; here are some of the details (I wrote twice as much because there were so many more, but mercifully cut back on them): https://www.newyorker.com/…/why-louis-cks-i-love-you-daddy-…


C.K.’s movie doesn’t just excuse but actually endorses sexual depredation as an artistic practice and as a way of life.
NEWYORKER.COM
at Magee
Nat Magee This review is astounding. I've been a big fan of Louis CK ever since "Louie" came out, and I was excited to see what he could do on the big screen. However, the confirmation of the stories that circulated about him have called most of his work into question for me. At the moment, it makes me a bit sick to watch any of his material/shows, but I know that one day I'm going to go back and view some of it with my new awareness. What will I think of it then? What would I have thought of this movie if it had been released as intended?
arc Imbillicieri
Marc Imbillicieri What does his misconduct have to do with the work?
at Magee
Nat Magee This is my personal reaction, so objectively it might have nothing to do with it, but I guess because his comedy/filmed content is so personal and has a lot of sexuality involved. Knowing that he's hurt other people with the same sexuality that's fueled a lot of his comedy feels painful to me. The work is still brilliant and funny, but at this moment I can't separate the work from the man.

ndreas Petrossiants
Andreas Petrossiants Would really recommend this review as well, which was published 2 or so weeks ago: http://www.4columns.org/orange-michelle/i-love-you-daddy
isa Salazar
Lisa Salazar Clear-eyed view without the taint of his latest revelations.
inda Covello
Linda Covello Thank you for sharing that review.

ophie Krueger
Sophie Krueger I think that this idea of “cinematic gaslighting” really holds a lot of merit. I think that it’s definitely a phenomenon for liberal, male writers and directors in their creation of female characters. Are there any other movies you can specifically identify that do this?
isa Salazar
Lisa Salazar Fatal Attraction, Disclosure are the first two that come to mind. Nearly all action films objectify women as molls. The latest sci fi films allege to have female heroes but they are all reduced to dressed up Barbie dolls with no emotional depth. Geez, as I write this, what's left?
atrick McEvoy-Halston

aquel Herrera
Raquel Herrera Great review. Manhattan was my favorite movie when I was 18, although I never managed to comprehend why someone my age would be so intent on having a relationship with a clearly immature 42 year old. In time, I enjoyed many Woody Allen movies, though I never got around to accept the insistence on this kind of "relationships" between young girl and older men. What is wrong with these directors? Lately, I had been enjoying immensely some of CK's stand-up, naively believing he was actually being sarcastic. Turns out he has a lot of problems and he should be held accountable for them. All in all, I am extremely saddened by the recent news and how they affect humor and criticism in movies.
Benjamin Homaii I’m afraid I don’t find the sentence “It's a disgusting film that never should have been acquired for distribution in the first place.” a compelling professional critique of a movie.

avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel Agreed. This is a hatchet job and despite any current or future protests it's clearly a reaction at least in part to headlines, as opposed to merely the film. It's unprofessional and frankly I didn't expect it from Mr. Brody. I am disappointed.
iriam Bilsker
Miriam Bilsker he supports it with evidence and an argument about the film, so I don't understand where your problem lies. The fact that he is making a judgment in the first place?
enjamin Homaii
Benjamin Homaii Look, there is no argument or supporting evidence for a critic to categorize a film as disgusting and that it shouldn’t have been distributed. Is a professional movie critic a moral judge? What authority a movie critic has to talk about the distribution of a movie?! His unprofessionalism in regard to “I love you, Daddy” is axiomatic and if it’s not evident to you, there’s no way I can prove you otherwise.
iriam Bilsker
Miriam Bilsker Do you not think movies make moral arguments? I think Richard Brody has always argued that films have worldviews and points of view. If a film is endorsing a disgusting worldview, is it not disgusting? You may argue that perhaps his claim goes too far, but not that it’s unsupported. It’s not a stray statement, it’s backed up with the rest of the argument in the review. I teach writing to my first year college students, so I am trained to recognize that claims have to be backed up with reasons and evidence. Brody made a claim but it is not a throwaway statement -- it was backed up with reasoning and evidence from the film. That’s the essence of what a review does. So I’m not sure where the problem lies.
Miriam Bilsker as for distribution, Brody has argued in the past that movies he likes should be more widely distributed (e.g. spike lee undistributed movies, certain directors that are hard to see), and he has been thinking in print for a while about how movies are made and distributed, so I see this as a continuation of that critical practice.
inda Covello
Linda Covello Miriam Bilsker here, here...very well stated.
enjamin Homaii
Benjamin Homaii Miriam, it’s not my intention to come off as cantankerous, so when I see that our take on professional criticism is conspicuously different right to the core, it will be of no use to discuss this anymore. Discussions are fruitful when people share some fundamental concepts, but here, the problem is with the very concepts. You don’t ostensibly accept that calling a movie “garbage” is unprofessional for a critic and I won’t budge either that it’s not. So, with all due respect, I just don’t share your point of view. And I believe that concludes this thread.inda Covello
Linda Covello Benjamin Homaii you may choose to withdraw from the "thread" and it is your right to do so, however, as Ms. Bilsker has raised what others may see as valid points for further debate, the issue may ostensibly be considered open to others 😑
Benjamin Homaii Of course, Linda; knock yourself out.
inda Covello
Linda Covello Rather not, thanks anyway. I've said my piece, just pointing out that no one has authority to shut a thread down other than the admin or the original poster should he/they choose to do so. Have a nice evening.
Benjamin Homaii I wasn’t shutting down the thread, but merely insinuating that I wouldn’t debate over this matter anymore.
Linda Covello Yea, I got that part too. Thanks. bye now.

odney Welch
Rodney Welch I don’t buy Brody’s bottom line. 

He gives a typically concise and even persuasive breakdown of what the film is about and why he doesn’t like it, but he takes a considerable leap when he says that — even without the revelations about Louis C.K. — it was irresponsible for any studio to release it. 

He goes from being a critic to being a shrill moral cop, a defender of artistic suppression on the grounds of nothing more than the fact that he was morally offended. Need I remind him that a lot of people were deeply offended by the ideas promulgated by his hero Jean-Luc Godard — particularly “Hail Mary” — and also tried to prevent that film’s release? There are a lot of films that I find morally offensive. I don’t try to stop them from being shown.

Please understand that I fully grasp why Louis C.K.’s personal troubles destroyed this film’s chances of release. What I object to here is Brody assuming an unusual and unpleasant role as a guardian of public morality.
amela Royce
Pamela Royce The best part of this:

“The result is, in effect, an act of cinematic gaslighting, an attempt to spin the tenets of modern liberal feminism into shiny objects of hypnotic paralysis. The movie declares that depredation is liberation, morality is tyranny, judgment is narrow-mindedness, shamelessness is creativity, lechery is admiration, and public complaint is private vanity.”

Thank you, Mr. Brody.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Where will this be available now that he's been blacklisted for being afraid of sex and pitifully begging women to watch him masturbate?
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Yankel, this post exacerbates the problem, which is macho. It also takes us away from the victims' experience of this sex crime, which wasn't for them a laughing matter but a matter of intimidation and humiliation and powerlessness. He is powerful, and was very successful in his act of predation. Other men who behave in a ways which make them immune to your accusation are people like Weinstein. He didn't just masturbate but raped; he didn't just beg but forced.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Excuse me but the NYTimes article makes no mention of rape of any kind.
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Yankel Todris I was referring to Weinstein. Is it your impression that the women who were subject to C.K. weren't actually harmed by the experience, being that he was so clearly pathetic, as you say?
Yankel Todris I think that the women who agreed to watch and the woman who declined have zero moral fiber, trying to ruin someone's life to get in the papers.
Who is talking about Weinstein? We are talking about Louis C.K.
Yankel Todris Your problem definitely isn't machismo...
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Yankel Todris When I mentioned rape I was referring to Weinstein. But speaking of Weinstein, do you think that the women who ended up not deterring Weinstein from making sexual use of them were lacking in moral fibre, or Kevin Spacey's victims? This is generally considered blaming the victim. C.K. has power over them; he knows he's got them where they're overwhelmed and unsure of themselves... unsure of what will happen to them if they balk and refuse; and so they'll find them ostensibly complicit in a situation which can readily be dismissed in macho culture as their own fault... for after all, why didn't you just refuse? He's got all the cards, and playing them. He wants his victims to feel powerless and used, as you are inclined to as well, considering your comments about New Yorker readers and about me, personally. People aren't accepting this kind of behaviour anymore.
Yankel Todris Kindly post a a statistical model akin to the tax bracket clearly delineating which sexual acts become verboten for every million dollars one possesses.
You are talking theology, my dear Savonarola.
Yankel Todris Bringing up Weinstein is of course completely extraneous to the discussion.
Like bringing up O.J. Simpson or John Dillinger.
And don't try to pretend you didn't mention rape because you don't have anything rational to say about the discussion of Richard "Phyllis Schlafly II" Brody's masturbation fixation.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris You are a perfect example of Antonio Gramsci's theory that the bourgeoisie uses cultural hegemony to make the proles identify with the well-being of the bourgeoisie.
Slaving away at customer service and nodding approvingly at the moralistic coup perpetrated by powerful men writing for the New York Times.

ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Any links to a bootleg?
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel This so-called "film criticism" is a hatchet job and despite any current or future protests that it isn't, it's clearly a reaction at least in part to headlines, as opposed to merely the film. It's unprofessional and frankly I didn't expect it from Mr. Brody. I am very disappointed.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Brody has cut himself off from his godardian roots recently, praising the show Girls and attacking European movies as too anti-bourgeois.
Very sad he's become just another eunuch of the court of New Yorker readers.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris BTW im not a big C.K. fan but would like to see this movie which was effusively praised by Peter Bradshaw before C.K. was shamed for his lack of manliness and being stuck in a celibate rut of masturbation.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Imagine if a woman was attacked and had her movie dropped for stripping for a man and fingering herself😂

ussell Colwell
Russell Colwell Uh huh. And imagine a woman doing that.
arc Imbillicieri
Marc Imbillicieri Russell Colwell I was once groped by a girl in front of many people.
ussell Colwell
Russell Colwell The world is a strange and interesting place, Marc Imbillicieri, with exceptions to every 'rule', I grant you that.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Did you feel like a victim?
If that girl would one day become successful would you try to ruin her career?
I'm asking seriously not sarcastically I'm just curious as I liked your previous posts.
arc Imbillicieri
Marc Imbillicieri Yankel Todris I was embarrassed. I tried laughing it off, but I was pissed I kept thinking that if I had done that to her, I'd have security guards grabbing at my arms and pulling me out.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris Yeah that's pretty crappy behavior embarrassing you like that.
ankel Todris
Yankel Todris In a room full of people
ussell Colwell
Russell Colwell Do you have any idea why she did it?
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Marc Imbillicieri That was sexual abuse then. Your feeling embarrassed by the incident is absolutely valid.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Marc Imbillicieri It is also exactly the kind of molestation that generates shame and hate... a desire for revenge. Women need to know that they can participate in generating shame and hate in men too. The cycle can go that a woman who is shamed and humiliated in life becomes a mother who does this sort of thing to her boys. The boys grow up and abuse women for the crimes of the mother, women who when they raise their own boys... No one humiliates someone unless they themselves have experienced it.
auren Lauter
Lauren Lauter Marc Imbillicieri- that's horrible you went through that and it sounds abusive. But it seems like you are trying to use this example in order to dispel larger conversations about abusive, entrenched patriarchal structures that control the world we all live in. What happened to you doesn’t change the fact that we live in a patriarchal, male dominated society where both men and women have been and are routinely harrassed and abused by MEN. It’s seen as “locker room” behavior. It’s seen as “boys will be boys.” Women are routinely told to be quiet, to be attractive, that abuse and harrassement are the fault of women or that they should be grateful for the attention. While your situation sounds shitty--was this woman in a position of power over you? Did you feel like as a man you deserved what she was doing to you, and that’s why you didn’t say anything? Did yuou feel as though no one would believe you or care/ Because that’s what women (and some men at the hands of men) feel all the time in these situation
iane Lake
Diane Lake Great response to these sort of deflecting commenters and the whole 'trust the poem and not the poet" homilies to prop up the patriarchal status quo. So tiresome.
nna Mulholland
Anna Mulholland Yeah, right, that's typical female behavior. Also, the female groper is readily deflected because rarely is there fear of further consequence to the man. Not nevet, but the routine nature of experiencing groping IS NOT COMPARABLE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN. (I was groped by an unidentifed stranger in a crowed at a concert when I was 14, most disconcerting, no long term harm, but why should that be a routine experience for a young girl?) Also, that was just the first, not the only, incident. As all women know.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Anna Mulholland It may be that we will go through this time without anyone much mentioning it, because the greatest taboo is to speak averse of mothers, but where you will find molestation of boys by women is women (what do women who've been repeatedly humiliated become when they become mothers? magically loving, or seekers of love through their children?) upon their sons. Unwelcome handling, obtuse to the needs of the boy but for the mother's own pleasure. Within this realm, there is inappropriate touching to equal that we see by men upon women in the adult world. We won't see this discussed, even as it is something that needs to be. So what will happen is that revenge for this mistreatment will occur, via populist political groups ... like the Bernie Bros, which parade "unquestionable virtue" but which noticeably seem to sideline the concerns of women to rise in the world.
nna Mulholland
Anna Mulholland Parental sexual abuse is abhorrent. But I think again much more prevalent male adult. On boys and girls.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Anna Mulholland In families like that, the fathers are mostly remote... mothers spend most of the time with the children. Where both parents are equally involved from the start, you will always find they aren't in any way significant problems, because that level of genuine interest by both parents means progressive, emotionally evolved parents.
nna Mulholland
Anna Mulholland Are you suggesting that sexually inappropriate behavior of the mother with the son is commonplace and serves a role in explaining routine sexual harassment of women by men? I'm not really sure what your point is. Good parents work together? Bad parents screw up their kids? The idea that sexually inappropriate behavior is hard to identify for men is just ridiculous. Treat your colleagues like your mom's friends sexually, assuming nothing weird, it's pretty easy to know what's going on, denial is just bullshit.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Anna Mulholland Yes. That's what happens to women who are denied love in life, are shamed, humiliated... their children will always be used to satisfy unmet needs, and abandoned when they seek to individuate from them. Boys end up reifying their mothers, but destroying women they've projected their abusive mothers onto.
auren Lauter
Lauren Lauter Patrick McEvoy-Halston What are you talking about? Your deflection of a very real structural patriarchy, by using some sort of Freudian and ridiculous red herring, is similar to those who claim that white Christian males are being persecuted. Here are some stastics on child sexual abuse. “offenders are overwhelmingly male.” We have always known this. This is common sense. This doesn’t condone what some women do and the ways in which mothers abuse that are less blatant, or even just violent. But it seems that you have a difficult time coming to terms with the fact that we live in world and within systems that privilege male power, and are looking for any way you--not well, mind you--to find holes in it’s assertion.
Statistics on Perpetrators of CSA
VICTIMSOFCRIME.ORG
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lauren Lauter Origins of patriarchy, is what I'm talking about. Patriarchy dies when people evolve to the point we're seeing in mass in Scandinavian countries, and throughout progressive regions in North America, not because they are taught differently, better, but because the early childhood foundations have improved. They don't have adverse early experiences with their mothers, and so the idea of making society some sort of massive fatherly resistance to Her is absurd. Throughout history, though, that's the reason for patriarchy.
nna Mulholland
Anna Mulholland that's ridiculous. Blaming patriarchy on women, gas lighting!
auren Lauter
Lauren Lauter You said- "Yes. That's what happens to women who are denied love in life, are shamed, humiliated... their children will always be used to satisfy unmet needs, and abandoned when they seek to individuate from them. Boys end up reifying their mothers, b...See More
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Anna Mulholland No. Only women who have been severely abused will abuse their children. The problem is ONLY that our start as homo sapien sapiens is as only provisionally loving beings. We started off loving children because it gave us stimulation, pleasure. Children were evolved to provide it, so to be cared for at least until they had a chance not to be eaten readily by wolves. Love didn't exist. From there, very slowly, love has crept into parental relations. Fathers weren't really part of the family fold until very recently. Their contact with children was equally as foul, but they only popped in here and there. There is no one to blame but our terrible early start as a species, really.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Anna Mulholland Don't shame people for expanding the explanation for why men would find themselves driven to purposely humiliate and destroy women, beyond the fact that men have tended to find good sport in this. What I am arguing is that the only way any girl or boy could evolve into some monstrosity like this, is if they experienced grand humiliation at the hands of someone who they imagine is a replicated in the person they now find themselves so intent to destroy. I believe the only people who hurt other people, are profoundly hurt people. For people like that, their future behavior is determined for them. Either they will take direct action themselves, or they will vote in regressives who'll do it for them societally.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lauren Lauter Men don't benefit from patriarchy. Not really. Only provisionally. It's defence against felt perennial worries of envelopment, of rendered powerlessness. It's an emotionally retarded way of organizing society, built out of a time of less evolved people than exist now. To anyone who came out of an emotionally well-nurturing household, it is personally abusive and traumatizing to find yourself prospering in a world where others are intentionally withheld and stigmatized. You want everyone to enjoy and love life, become fully self-realized, for it's their absolute due.
nna Mulholland
Anna Mulholland So frustrating.
auren Lauter
Lauren Lauter Yawn- how nice that you get to over intellectualize enough to believe your own bs.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Anna Mulholland For both of us though, Anna. We both want a world where patriarchy is left in the dustbin, and everyone is empowered to achieve whatever they will in life. We all tried, and hopefully have a better day.
atrick McEvoy-Halston
Patrick McEvoy-Halston Lauren Lauter That's a crude response, Lauren. I'm truly trying to seek out answers, and I think that's apparent.
Yankel Todris Wishing Brody a great career as world-expert on lena dunham and leading theorist of bourgeois prudery.
manuele Turricchia
Emanuele Turricchia "[I love you daddy is] a disgusting film that never should have been acquired for distribution in the first place". Damn, now I really want to see it.
avid Dean Daniel
David Dean Daniel And it's a well-reviewed film, too. Hopefully it will get the distribution it deserves at some point.
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/i-love-you-daddy


Shot on 35mm in black and white, the movie was…
METACRITIC.COM
tephanie Swift
Stephanie Swift I don't know much about what's happening with this film, and don't want to read the article (no offense). It's just that I have ALWAYS thought Louis was overrated, and far too angry and creepy. I've never understood why he gets so much airtime.
tephanie Swift


cott Hartley
Scott Hartley I wish you would compare and contrast the film, "Lolita," Kubric, 1962. I cannot, unfortunately, offer the customary New Yorker rate, but wouldn't the project be interesting?
Bill Randolph as counterpoint to Brody's laboured tendentiousness compare:
https://www.slantmagazine.com/film/review/i-love-you-daddy


I Love You, Daddy Film Review by Carson Lund
SLANTMAGAZINE.COM
iane Lake


ill Randolph
Bill Randolph this is a simple-minded verging on mindless screed. one doesn't normally defend the work of bad men as such, but as is appropriate to whatever merit the work may embody. the goodness or badness of the maker is generally unknowable, and in any case COMPLETELY irrelevant.
iane Lake
Diane Lake I didn't find the article simple-minded. Sensible. Funny/not funny how this subject has touched such a nerve in our movie club. Yes, I know, elevating the art over the artist is one of the tenets of western critical thought. It's logic's slippery slope, the moral quandary. No matter what our opinion, it all boils down to what level of monstrosity we can stomach. I'm more than okay with not feeding the beast - predator artists - by not buying what they're selling. None the poorer for it either.
amela Royce
Pamela Royce I saw Murder in the Orient Express yesterday. A friend of mine said she hesitates to see it because Johnny Depp is in it. 

Well, yeah, but so is Judi Dench and other fine actors. So, I went to see them—and it’s visual stunning cinematography, etc.

Besides, Depp’s bad guy gets stabbed to death, so there’s that.
Bill Randolph Diane Lake there's nothing the least bit slippery or slope-y about it: it's a clear and distinct line in the firmament, as oppposed to pseudo logic's slippery slope (next they'll be having us destroy films by redheads) of a censorious fascist film burning mentality

evi Yesodharan
Devi Yesodharan I found Manohla Dargis' take (rather, retake) both more honest and nuanced.  https://www.nytimes.com/.../louis-ck-and-hollywoods-canon...


NYTIMES.COM
Bill Randolph it's in no way more anything than the slant review, except as personal, hermetic question-begging, ranging from the relatively innoxious 'As if it were possible for me to watch a movie in which women are abused for no apparent reason — without even a pretense of narrative rationale': the reason may well be that women are in fact sometimes abused for no apparent reason--to the IRRESPONSIBLE suggestion that Louis C.K.'s attitude toward Woody Allen should become 'sour' because 'Mr. Allen was ACCUSED [emphasis added] by his daughter, Dylan Farrow, of sexually molesting her'. so she thinks an accusation whose veracity has been denied should be acted upon as if proven!



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